Will Islamic fundies win the day in Iraq?

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Will Islamic extremists ultimately control Iraq?

Yes
5
21%
No
9
38%
Good possibility
8
33%
Slight chance
2
8%
 
Total votes : 24

Postby RYP » Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:54 pm

...and one more thing. The fundos won't "win", they will make us lose.

It only takes one car bomb or attack a week to make Iraq "dangerous" when our goal was to make it "safe". Look a Saudi Arabia as an example. Expats are spooked, negative press, higher insurance and less interest in working there.
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Postby Land Rover » Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:17 pm

RYP wrote:...and one more thing. The fundos won't "win", they will make us lose.

It only takes one car bomb or attack a week to make Iraq "dangerous" when our goal was to make it "safe". Look a Saudi Arabia as an example. Expats are spooked, negative press, higher insurance and less interest in working there.


Do you think it is more dangerous now, compared to when Saddam was in power? Maybe more expats are spooked, but that must pale in comparison to how spooked the tortured, raped, murdered Iraqi people were...
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Postby Prodigal Son » Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:41 pm

Well Land, that depends on whether Saddam's torture and brutality were random or not. If the regime played by a consistent set of rules -- i.e. require folks to pay lip service to ideology and do what Saddam and Co. say, then folks could determine the consequences of their actions. Were they good options? No, obviously not, but the degree of consistency in Saddam's dictatorship is important. Play by the rules, don't get your genitals electrocuted.

Now, however, take the current sitution, with US/Coalition forces duking it out with various extremists. What consequences can an Iraqi predict will come from his or her actions? Will X lead to Y? Or to Z? Or some other outcome? If I cooperate with the US, will my head get cut off or will a car bomb get me? If I cooperate with the jihadist insurgents, will I get sent to Abu Ghraib? If I go to the market today will a car bomb get me? The sheer chaos of the situation and the inability of individual Iraqis to reasonably determine what the consequences of their actions will be is why many can reasonably say post-Saddam Iraq is quite possibly worse than Iraq under Saddam for many Iraqis. Iraqis have more options with Saddam gone, but no degree of certainty what will come from adopting one option over another.
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Postby Land Rover » Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:37 pm

Prodigal Son wrote:Well Land, that depends on whether Saddam's torture and brutality were random or not. If the regime played by a consistent set of rules -- i.e. require folks to pay lip service to ideology and do what Saddam and Co. say, then folks could determine the consequences of their actions. Were they good options? No, obviously not, but the degree of consistency in Saddam's dictatorship is important. Play by the rules, don't get your genitals electrocuted.

Now, however, take the current sitution, with US/Coalition forces duking it out with various extremists. What consequences can an Iraqi predict will come from his or her actions? Will X lead to Y? Or to Z? Or some other outcome? If I cooperate with the US, will my head get cut off or will a car bomb get me? If I cooperate with the jihadist insurgents, will I get sent to Abu Ghraib? If I go to the market today will a car bomb get me? The sheer chaos of the situation and the inability of individual Iraqis to reasonably determine what the consequences of their actions will be is why many can reasonably say post-Saddam Iraq is quite possibly worse than Iraq under Saddam for many Iraqis. Iraqis have more options with Saddam gone, but no degree of certainty what will come from adopting one option over another.


Just so I am clear, are you saying that it is possible that the situation is worse because the people in Iraq have more ways to die and that those ways are more uncertain than being executed by Saddam Hussein? Also, I believe the Iraqis were never able to determine the consequences of their actions when Saddam's regime was comitting crimes against humanity. ...

Saddam Hussein:
Executed opponents and suspected potential rivals, including
scores of high-level government officials and thousands of
political prisoners.

Since the 1970s, escalated and made routine the systematic
torture and execution of political prisoners.

Ordered the use of chemical weapons against Iranian forces in
the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war, and against Iraq's Kurdish population
in 1988. The 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war left 150,000 to 340,000
Iraqis and 450,000 to 730,000 Iranians dead.

Ordered the invasion and destruction of Kuwait in 1990-91 with
1,000 Kuwaitis killed.

Directed the 1991 bloody suppression of Kurdish and Shi'a
insurgencies in northern and southern Iraq with at least 30,000
to 60,000 killed.

Ordered the destruction of southern marshes to extinguish the
Shi'a insurgency.

and his lovely children:
Qusay Saddam Hussein

Qusay swiftly helps Saddam eliminate any real or perceived
threat to the regime by using bloody and shocking "tools of
repression" to blackmail, force confessions, and destroy
opponents.

Periodically ordered during 1988-99 mass prison executions of
several thousand inmates ("prison cleansing").

Led crackdown against the al-Dulaym tribe in 1995 and local
Shi'a revolt in 1997.

Uday Saddam Hussein

History of extreme violent behavior including murder, torture, and rape of women and girls.

Has tortured and jailed members of Iraq's national Soccer Team
for losing games.

A leading regime figure in the wholesale looting of Kuwaiti
property.

Heavily involved in Iraq's smuggling against UN sanctions, and in
illicit financial dealings.

Sure, Iraq is full of uncertainty, but at least the people will have choices now and in the future. With Saddam, there were no choices. [/u]
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Postby Sri Lanky » Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:04 am

So,does this mean America failed?
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