Will Islamic fundies win the day in Iraq?

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Will Islamic extremists ultimately control Iraq?

Yes
5
21%
No
9
38%
Good possibility
8
33%
Slight chance
2
8%
 
Total votes : 24

Will Islamic fundies win the day in Iraq?

Postby Sri Lanky » Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:36 am

Hmmm?
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Postby Sri Lanky » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:17 pm

I give it a month before Iraq roils towards an Iran-like regime.
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Postby RYP » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:21 pm

Depends on if any of that cash ends up in the hands of Iraqis..Its hard to throw rocks at US soldiers when you are wearing a nice suit...
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Postby seektravelinfo » Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:58 pm

Sri Lanky wrote:I give it a month before Iraq roils towards an Iran-like regime.


Religious extremism is a threat, here and over there, but I think it is a cliche'd assumption that Iraq will go fundie right away.
So many people seem to WANT that to happen in Iraq, just so they can go with the "I told you so" and smugly tsk tsk all over the place.
that annoys me, that posture.
Americans in their arrogance, especially the lefties, seem to be waiting with bated breath for Iraq's failure and smugly assume that Iraq is not capable of building a free society. It's a condescending attitude, one which liberals are guilty of all too often.
And I am a lefty (i suppose), so I can criticize with some real perspective.
"I wish the women would hurry up and take over." (Leonard Cohen)
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Postby patriot » Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:04 pm

I have faith in the Iraqi people, but I don't have any faith in our government's ability to give the Iraqis their fair share.
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Postby Sri Lanky » Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:25 pm

Lefties want America to fail? THEY HAVE FAILED ALREADY.
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Postby seektravelinfo » Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:30 pm

Sri Lanky wrote:Lefties want America to fail? THEY HAVE FAILED ALREADY.


Hold on. You're a little shrill. A most unattractive trait.
It's all in the eye of the beholder isn't it?
"I wish the women would hurry up and take over." (Leonard Cohen)
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Postby Jackson » Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:49 pm

i wouldnt say america has completely failed. IT has failed to a certain extent. But it did get rid of a brutal dictator. But killed and hurt many in its method. Like Stalin, sure he made Russia a world power, but at what cost. (history buffs, dont jump on me, i just used that as an example of bad means)

I think it is stupid to jump to conclusions that fundies will control Iraq. I doubt it. Sistani isnt that stupid. He's a smart guy. He knows he couldnt successfully put up a shia state in Baghdad. IT'll probably, as I'm hoping be moderate Muslim. But as long as American troops are there, peace will not happen. There will be attacks and more and attacks.

I dotn know. Sometimes i think America just never learns.
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Postby RYP » Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:46 pm

Failure...something that needs a Goal to judge... I think America didn't fail...it wasn't like we all jumped up and signed a petition to invade Iraq...

We were told not too long after 9/11 that we better hurry up and attack Iraq or they were going to attack us. We were shown proof:reports, powerpoint, pictures, tape recordings, testimony and other "facts". Then the government tried to convince the UN, Europe and other nations to join in and kick Saddam's ass.

The average American felt that things didnt quite make sense but if our CIA and military and government says we better do it....who are we to second guess them and urge caution. There were protests around the world.

So Bush failed to convince or prove that Iraq was a threat. Our first failure.

They then proceeded. People realized that they had been bamboozled. that the military build up had been authorized before Bush ever made his case to the public. We rolled through Iraq like a empty parking lot. The army deserted, we stopped in Baghada. We failed to win the war because we did not get a surrender.
Then failures began to multiply
We failed to secure the country. It was looted and destoryed
We failed to find WMD's. We were scammed
We failed to create a post war plan
We failed to accomplish the mission.
We were successful in securing the oil fields but we failed to generate enough oil to pay for the reconstruction
We failed to fully restore services
We failed to create enough jobs
We failed in putting down revolts
We failed in winning the hearts and minds
We succeeded in killing Saddams sons and capturing him.
We failed in creating a democracy. It appears we have a group of CIA funded puppets were left with our hastily assembled laws. We failed to restore security and order, We failed to make Iraq safe, we failed to safeguard contractors, civilians and military..

I could go on...

Check out tommorrows GAO report on Iraq...its quite depressing..
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Postby DawnC71 » Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:51 pm

Personally I think it is far more likely that the Old Bath party regullars will come back again.
They may try to come back more humane at first but they will be back around in the mix somewhere.
Passion is necessity. It is not diligence, or simply being committed to a goal. Passion consumes you while you chase down your goal. Passion should always be your natural state of mind for it is what sparks momentum and sets the pace.
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Postby nick » Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:40 am

Can I get the GAO report online?
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Postby Land Rover » Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:22 pm

RYP wrote:Failure...something that needs a Goal to judge... I think America didn't fail...it wasn't like we all jumped up and signed a petition to invade Iraq...

We were told not too long after 9/11 that we better hurry up and attack Iraq or they were going to attack us. We were shown proof:reports, powerpoint, pictures, tape recordings, testimony and other "facts". Then the government tried to convince the UN, Europe and other nations to join in and kick Saddam's ass.

The average American felt that things didnt quite make sense but if our CIA and military and government says we better do it....who are we to second guess them and urge caution. There were protests around the world.

So Bush failed to convince or prove that Iraq was a threat. Our first failure.

They then proceeded. People realized that they had been bamboozled. that the military build up had been authorized before Bush ever made his case to the public. We rolled through Iraq like a empty parking lot. The army deserted, we stopped in Baghada. We failed to win the war because we did not get a surrender.
Then failures began to multiply
We failed to secure the country. It was looted and destoryed
We failed to find WMD's. We were scammed
We failed to create a post war plan
We failed to accomplish the mission.
We were successful in securing the oil fields but we failed to generate enough oil to pay for the reconstruction
We failed to fully restore services
We failed to create enough jobs
We failed in putting down revolts
We failed in winning the hearts and minds
We succeeded in killing Saddams sons and capturing him.
We failed in creating a democracy. It appears we have a group of CIA funded puppets were left with our hastily assembled laws. We failed to restore security and order, We failed to make Iraq safe, we failed to safeguard contractors, civilians and military..

I could go on...

Check out tommorrows GAO report on Iraq...its quite depressing..


i agree with most of your points, however, would ending such things as this be deemed failure?

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Fundamentals

Postby Vincent » Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:51 pm

I would agree with Dawn that it is far more likely that a Saddam-lite regime is more in the offing than fundamentalists.

I think the pre-eminent religious elements in the country are actually more moderate. Sure there are fundamentalists, bu tI don't think they hold sway. In fact, it is my hope that the moderate religous segment exerts more influence than the military/authoritarian segement.

I guess we'll see.
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I really wouldn't be shocked

Postby Bronco » Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:09 pm

What IF they reelect Saddam?
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Postby RYP » Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:52 pm

Well we set the standards I mentioned above. So we failed by our own measurement. Had we said we are gonna take out Saddam and any weapons we find. We would have succeeded in three weeks and been at home. Same with Afghanistan. It took three weeks to topple the taliban and years to "mop up". But a foriegn military presence in either of these countries is going to create a backlash unrelated to the first problem.

So success would have been lowering expectations, exceeding on delivery and then starting with a fresh sheet of paper to plan Phase Two.

We should have listened to the UN. Done preemptive strikes, grabbing the oil fields and begun reconstruction of the two no fly zones (Kurdistan and the Shia South, Effectively bottling up the trouble spots and starving their oil revenue.
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