Omar Khadr

The Black Flag Cafe is the place travelers come to share stories and advice. Moderated by Robert Young Pelton the author of The World's Most Dangerous Places.

Moderator: coldharvest

Postby Holland » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:26 pm

Penta wrote:
Bouncer wrote:So, give him a pat on the head then for engaging the US Military in combat and killing one and wounding another?

You don't know that. You must have read the reports about evidence tampering.

And anyway, what he did or didn't do is beside the point. If he was indoctrinated into jihad by his father, and since birth, what choice did he have? If he was being attacked in his cave by US forces, why wouldn't he try to fight back, if he could? I would, you would. It would be legitimate self-defence by anyone in those circumstances. The boy needs help, not further trauma.


Sometimes I think your joking. No one could be this flowery.
User avatar
Holland
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 2331
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:08 am
Location: Central America

Postby vagabond » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:28 pm

vagabond wrote:
When I think "rehabilitation" I picture people who care, a constructive environment, psychologists, etc, not Clockwork Orange.

You're restoring my hope in the US. They have places like that there then?


yeah totally. for celebs:

http://www.wonderlandcenter.com/

Image
"If you were born near someplace called "The Erg of ____" you lost the lottery." - Kurt the Wise

"If you're stupid, the whole world is a dangerous place." - friendlyskies
User avatar
vagabond
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 5126
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:20 pm
Location: LA

Postby Woodsman » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:29 pm

Bouncer wrote:What is the magic age?


This is a very simple question to answer, Bouncer....and I believe you already know this...

The magic age is the age at which a human can be a lethal threat. Lethal threats are not based on age, they are based on lethality, with very little time in which judgment is to be used.

If I was in the military service on an operation in which my orders put me in a situation where an 8 year old was aiming an AK at me, I would take immediate action and to every extent possible, smoke him immediately.

Any other response is a fools.
Life is short. Eat, Drink & Be Merry!
User avatar
Woodsman
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 7426
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:59 pm
Location: Enchanted forests

Postby Penta » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:29 pm

flowery


? I thought it was quite plainly put.
Shes never interfered with me. I have no complaints about her.
Same here.
Mega ditto.
I met her once and I found her to be a nice lady. Not kookey in any way.
Penta has always been gracious, kind and very sane in all my interactions with her.
User avatar
Penta
Ruby Tuesday
 
Posts: 15585
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:32 pm
Location: UK, Spain

Postby Woodsman » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:32 pm

Penta, please please come visit America so I can take you to Detroit so you can be held up at gunpoint for your money by 11 and 12 year olds so they can get some crack.

Maybe after that experience your "flowerness" will start to wilt a bit.
Life is short. Eat, Drink & Be Merry!
User avatar
Woodsman
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 7426
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:59 pm
Location: Enchanted forests

Postby Holland » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:32 pm

Penta wrote:
flowery


? I thought it was quite plainly put.


I meant flowery as in full of sap.
User avatar
Holland
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 2331
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:08 am
Location: Central America

Postby Penta » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:35 pm

Oh, well. I've only been expressing official world policy on treatment of child soldiers. It's strange how treating unfortunates with decency doesn't seem to catch on with you guys.
Shes never interfered with me. I have no complaints about her.
Same here.
Mega ditto.
I met her once and I found her to be a nice lady. Not kookey in any way.
Penta has always been gracious, kind and very sane in all my interactions with her.
User avatar
Penta
Ruby Tuesday
 
Posts: 15585
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:32 pm
Location: UK, Spain

Postby vagabond » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:43 pm

I don't quite see the disparity.

While the kid has a gun, he's a combatant and can be killed if the situation necessitates.

He is captured, interrogated for any timely or useful information then, following whatever UN protocol has been used to re-integrate LRA kids in Uganda, the government tries its best to rehabilitate this kid and reintegrate into normal society (if that is at all possible) so he doesn't a) decide to return to combat and b) is able to cope with any latent PTSD symptoms which might make him harmful to normal society.

Sounds like he had a shitty childhood, shitty teenage years, and will probably still have more trouble getting back on his feet if he is released. I doubt jailing him for something he did at 15 is really going to do much.

V
"If you were born near someplace called "The Erg of ____" you lost the lottery." - Kurt the Wise

"If you're stupid, the whole world is a dangerous place." - friendlyskies
User avatar
vagabond
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 5126
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:20 pm
Location: LA

Postby Holland » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:44 pm

Penta wrote:Oh, well. I've only been expressing official world policy on treatment of child soldiers. It's strange how treating unfortunates with decency doesn't seem to catch on with you guys.


Unfortunates? Come out of the bubble spastic.
User avatar
Holland
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 2331
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:08 am
Location: Central America

Postby docwatson » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:46 pm

Penta, you are being culturally insensitive! You are applying modern Western Liberal values on a millennium-old warrior culture that had it's kids fighting since they were old enough to do so. The Brits, Russians and now the US are up against a culture where even the women come out to chop up the bits.

Child soldier - the key phrase being 'soldier'. He's not going to be rehabilitated to join the ranks of Euro Trash Intellectuals and write a multi-million Euro deal. He's more likely to return back to his clan and take up arms again. He's not a child anymore, either. He was a threat then and is a threat now. I know after 4 years that your crowd cheers every time an American soldier dies so nothing would make you happier to see this animal released back into the wild to kill again. : /

The trail should be quick and so should the immediate execution following the verdict.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life" - Robert A. Heinlein

Image
User avatar
docwatson
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 921
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:17 pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan

Postby Penta » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:47 pm

Tell me what's been anything less than unfortunate about his life.
Shes never interfered with me. I have no complaints about her.
Same here.
Mega ditto.
I met her once and I found her to be a nice lady. Not kookey in any way.
Penta has always been gracious, kind and very sane in all my interactions with her.
User avatar
Penta
Ruby Tuesday
 
Posts: 15585
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:32 pm
Location: UK, Spain

Postby Holland » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:53 pm

Penta wrote:Tell me what's been anything less than unfortunate about his life.



The fact that it didn't end in Afghanistan.
User avatar
Holland
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 2331
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:08 am
Location: Central America

Postby docwatson » Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:34 pm

Penta wrote:Tell me what's been anything less than unfortunate about his life.


Again you're being culturally insensitive and also culturally arrogant!

Why are your values about what is 'unfortunate' for his life applicable to his culture? He was trained to fight from birth as was is father, grandfather and ancestors who fought Alexander the Great!

It sounds like you're being a Western Liberal out to 'save the savages from themselves'. Shame on you!
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life" - Robert A. Heinlein

Image
User avatar
docwatson
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 921
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:17 pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan

Postby Holland » Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:42 pm

docwatson wrote:
Penta wrote:Tell me what's been anything less than unfortunate about his life.


Again you're being culturally insensitive and also culturally arrogant!

Why are your values about what is 'unfortunate' for his life applicable to his culture? He was trained to fight from birth as was is father, grandfather and ancestors who fought Alexander the Great!

It sounds like you're being a Western Liberal out to 'save the savages from themselves'. Shame on you!


And by maintaining these unfortunates did not understand what they were getting into, you insult their intelligence. Its so racist.
User avatar
Holland
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 2331
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:08 am
Location: Central America

Khadar

Postby cbychoice » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:52 pm

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national ... hadr031016.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/khadr/timeline.html

The brother

Al-Qaeda Family: A family divided

CBC News Online | March 3, 2004



Abdurahman Khadr
In the city of Toronto, on the other side of the world from Pakistan, is 21-year-old Abdurahman, the self-proclaimed black sheep of the Khadr family. He was released from the American prison at Guantanamo last October and says he is now prepared to tell his full story for the first time.

"I want to show people that I'm a person that lived all my life as Ahmed Said's son," he says. "A person that was raised to become an al-Qaeda, was raised to become a suicide bomber, was raised to become a bad person, and I came out to become – you know… I decided on my own that I do not want to be that, and I do not want to be a Muslim that's so loose… I want to be a good, strong, civilized, peaceful Muslim."

Here lies the essential division in the Khadr family.

The mother and daughter in Pakistan support the al-Qaeda cause, but insist the family was never an accepted part of the terrorist organization.



"And you know what?" Zaynab says. "For the Americans we're al-Qaeda, for the al-Qaeda, we're Canadians. It's really weird where you end up. I swear, we were never accepted because you know, we're Canadians. They're the Canadians. They're the Canadians. Whatever thing we do different it's like, it's OK, they're the Canadians."

In Toronto, however, the dissident son Abdurahman describes the family differently.



"Until now everybody says that we're an al-Qaeda connected family, but when I say this, just by me saying it, I just admit it that we are an al-Qaeda family now. We had connections to al-Qaeda," he says. "My family in Pakistan, they will never admit this at all. Why? Because they're totally – you know – they are what they are and they deny it. They will never admit this."

This is the story of one Canadian family drawn in the mysterious and dangerous world of al-Qaeda because of the fundamentalist Islamic beliefs of the parents. Ahmed Said Khadr immigrated to Canada from Egypt in 1977. He met and married his wife, Maha, a Palestinian-Canadian who had spent much of her life in Ottawa. They started a family and eventually had six children.

In 1980, when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, Islamic scholars declared a jihad, or "holy war." Volunteers came from throughout the Muslim world to fight against the Soviets.

That's where Ahmed Said Khadr met Osama bin Laden. Shortly afterwards, he sent for his Canadian family to join him in Afghanistan. The rest of the Khadr family story runs in parallel to the history of al-Qaeda, the world's most dangerous terrorist organization.


Ahmed Said Khadr
Ahmed Said Khadr became known to Canadians in 1996, when he was arrested in Pakistan and accused of complicity in a terrorist bombing of the Egyptian embassy in Islamabad, a bombing that killed 15 people. He went on a hunger strike and was interviewed by reporters in an Islamabad hospital. "I'm Canadian. I am 100 per cent innocent person," he said.

In January 1996, Prime Minister Jean Chrétien was on a Team Canada trade mission to Pakistan.



Ahmed Said Khadr's wife and some of their children came to Chrétien's hotel in Islamabad to plead the case of her husband. The oldest son, Abdullah, who was 15 at the time, remembers his encounter with the Canadian prime minister.

"He told me that 'once I was a son of a farmer, and I became prime minister. Maybe one day you will become one.' That was a nice compliment."



Jean Chrétien raised the Khadr case with the Pakistani prime minister at the time, Benazir Bhutto, and within weeks, Ahmed Said Khadr was released. He resumed his life, which he claimed was devoted to charity work in Afghanistan.

He raised money in Canada that he said he was using to provide food and schooling to Afghan orphans.

U.S. and Canadian Intelligence sources, however, identified Ahmed Said Khadr as a close associate of Osama bin Laden.

Now for the first time, members of the Khadr family admit that bin Laden and Ahmed Said Khadr were old friends. They fought together during the Afghanistan war in the 1980s.



"They're old friends," Abdurahman says. "My father is one of those really old people. It's like, you know, you're having buddies from your school and stuff. So they're old friends. They meet a lot. My father really respects Osama and Osama really respects my father."

"They had their differences," Maha says. "But he respected him as a person, that is standing up for something he believes in and is willing to sacrifice for it, a man who is doing a lot of good for people who are helping him, these people who are keeping him in their country and he is helping them doing many things, so he respected him as a person and as a leader of his group or whatever he believes in. But we were never part of them."
User avatar
cbychoice
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 1156
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:38 pm
Location: Home alone

PreviousNext

Return to Black Flag Cafe

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

cron