Should profiling be Permitted?

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Should profiling be allowed?

Always No
7
28%
yes, Sporatic and random
4
16%
Yes, Only Middle Easterners and Third-Worlders
4
16%
Yes, Only people from Muslim nations
0
No votes
Yes, only until "blue-eyed, blond" Muslims are identified as terrorist
3
12%
Yes, regardless
7
28%
 
Total votes : 25

Should profiling be Permitted?

Postby Shining Eye » Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:17 pm

Contrary to Political Correctness sensibilities, and taken in to account the finite number of resources to deploy in the fight against religious-based terrorism, shouldn't profiling be allowed? If, for example, all Chechnyians were "profiled" in Russia, the recent double suicide bombing that brought down two airliners full of innocent people could have been prevented.
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Postby lonelymoon » Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:19 pm

definitely profile muslims. I think recent history bears out the wisdom of it.
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Postby Renard » Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:59 pm

lonelymoon wrote:definitely profile muslims. I think recent history bears out the wisdom of it.


Aside from the name Mohammed, any grand ideas on how to tell the difference between an Arab Christian or an Arab Muslim, a Slavic Christian or a Slavic Muslim, a Pakistani or Indian Muslim and a Hindu or Sikh, a Philipino Christian and Muslim? The list goes on.

Lonely, would you have recommended that all average looking white dudes with crew cuts be profiled after the Oklahoma City Bombing? Or all trenchcoat-wearing teenagers after Columbine? Could ethnic profiling have worked in say, Northern Ireland? I'm curious...
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Postby lonelymoon » Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:25 pm

Renard, no I would not have recommended profiling in the instances of those threats because the situation was clearly different. There is no point in looking for blonde crew cuts in Oklahoma because the people who committed the crime were a fringe anomaly and not part of a movement. Yes, there might be more people who belong to their "antifederal hillybilly movement" but they are probably more easily penetrated by domestic surveillance / intelligence than the mideast based Al Qaeda would be. Furthermore, Al Qaeda has no cells we know in places like muslim eastern europe. I don't think you will see blue eyed Al Qaeda, other than lost souls like John Walker. Yes, profiling raises the spectre of WW2 Japanese internment camps, but the fact remains that the enemy fits an ethnic and geographic profile and they mean business and so so must we.
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Postby Renard » Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:46 pm

I believe in the statement that if the struggle against crime is to be won, the ingenuity of criminals must be matched by that of the police.

But racial profiling is hardly crime-fighting ingenuity. It seems in many respects more a sign of laziness by the security forces than anything. And as I implied in my previous post, it is pretty hard to profile a Muslim along racial lines.

lonelymoon wrote: Furthermore, Al Qaeda has no cells we know in places like muslim eastern europe. I don't think you will see blue eyed Al Qaeda, other than lost souls like John Walker.


Really? I guess you don't read about Bosnia too often then. Plus, many Persians have blue eyes and fair skin too.
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Postby patriot » Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:58 pm

Racial profiling is state-spsonsored racism. Anyone who supports such a thing in America should be ashamed of themselves. It's shit like that that creates enemies for the United States rather than culling them. It wouldn't work anyway, since any number of ethnic groups can be Muslim. Unless you want to start profiling people based on their religion, which is almost as un-American as racial profiling. People who support such action against their own citizens should sit down and read the Constitution. I'm not so afraid of the enemy that I'm willing to forsake my freedoms and discriminate against my fellow countrymen. That is cowardly and I will not go the road of cowardice like so many other Americans have. Give me liberty, or give me death.
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Postby Shining Eye » Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:37 pm

“Patriot:” You added “racial,” it wasn’t in the original question, that is a sign of your social conditioning. I would add that so far the vast majority of religious-based terrorism against America has been committed by Muslims, of Saudi Arabian descent, male ages between the ages of 20-45 years old. Who committed the 2 WTC attacks, the USS Cole attack, the African embassies bombing, Khobar Towers truck bomb, suicide bombing in Beirut and numerous smaller ones.
Where is there any mention of race? Are not Middle Easterners considered white? They aren’t black or Asian, are they? If all the acts of religious-based terrorism are committed by one specific type of individual, then why play some bizarre charade and look at other people? Why spread resources and waste manpower on a waste of time?
It seems two of the most effective steps Bush could do is withdraw all troops from NATO and militarize the Mexican and Canadian borders, and greatly increase the control on persons coming into America. This should include investigating persons from “friendly” nations as well, to catch those individuals who’ve relocated to a place like Britain and became citizens there, and then applied to come to America.
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Postby crotalus01 » Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:38 pm

Shining Eye, what constitutes a muslim nation? seriously, i mean America, France, Germany, and the UK all have sizeable muslim populations. then there are places like the Phillipines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Cambodia, Mali, etc that many people here dont think of as muslim but also have sizeable muslim populations. i assume you are talking about traditional middle eastern countries like Iraq, Saudi Arabia etc when you say muslim nations, but if we DID profile those folks then al-Qaeda would slip in some terrorists from, say, Thailand and they would fly under the radar because we arent looking at them. just my 2 cents worth....
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Postby patriot » Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:31 am

Maybe this idea would hold water if there weren't so many ways around it. What happens when the terrorists start recruiting Asian looking people? Then we should start profiling them, right? Or when they start using fair-skinned people, then we should start profiling them as well? Or when they start recruiting black people...but we already profile them. I'm sorry if I don't think we should militarize our borders and catalize the process of racial discrimination in America. I don't want to live in a militarized society, nor do I want to worry about someone mistaking me for a terrorist because I associate with someone in your profile group. One of my good friends is a male age 20-45 of Saudi Arabian descent, and I will not discriminate against him because you're scared. That is NOT what America is about, and to do so would be to forsake all the sacrifices our ancestors made for freedom. Racial profiling doesn't stop African-Americans from breaking the law in the inner city (not being racist but that is the purpose of racial profiling), and it won't stop terrorists from striking our country.
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Postby Piggs » Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:26 am

I say that anyone worth profiling should be given a silly hat to wear, or a big black X tattoo on their forehead... That'll teach them Muslims!
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Postby Shining Eye » Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:47 am

'make al Qeada recruit Asians or fair-skinned people'
Thats whats needed. make it difficult for them instead of letting them walk right in and attend flight school or raise funds in phony storefront charities in Jersey City or Detriot. Just because high-minded but misguided people like you want to stand on a abstract principle, you have no ground to put millions of lives at risk because you don't want to run the risk of being called a racist. Maybe you should read the 9-11 comission report and get some insight on what these religious terrorist have in mind.

"I will not discriminate against him because you're scared. That is NOT what America is about, and to do so would be to forsake all the sacrifices our ancestors made for freedom. "

Dude, that statement is so naive, that its funny. America was built on discrimination, it is in our constitution, remember "3/5's of a person?" Or how about the Indians, or Chinese railroad workers? Or Catholics and Mormons or Shakers? Or the "no blacks, no dogs and no Irish" signs? Discrimination is natural state of humanity. Its a built in human trait, the pecking order, to discriminate. Europeans do it: the English look down on the Irish, Asians do it: the Japanese look down on the Chinese and they both look down on the Koreans. The caste system in India. Maybe you've been conditioned by naive, idealistic do-gooders your whole life, but thats the way the world is and always has been.

The US Constitution isn't a death sentence. It was made to be amended and that could mean temporarily. When this latest Muslim uprising and militancy dies down, the changes can be undone.

Crotalus01: By Muslim nation, I mean the hard-core nations were all the terrorist are coming from: Pakistan, Syria, Iran, Indonesia, Chechnya and especially Saudi Arabia.
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Postby BIG-TARGET » Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:03 am

Profiling should continue until Al Queda starts recruiting from Norway!!
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Postby patriot » Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:07 am

America was built on discrimination


Well, I guess that's where you and I differ. I wouldn't have it any other way...
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Postby Scratch » Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:13 am

I completely agree with patriot on this issue. You are smart. Increased profiling will only create more anymosity in and outside the US. The tighter our ass gets, the more someone wants to stick something in it. I think we need something smarter than this. It is impossible to eliminate terrorism physically. Any jackass can become a terrorist, thus, there is no short term defense. I can tell you one thing though, unilateral movements like this will never help us. We are not safer than we were before 911 or the iraqi war. In order to win this one, we must go the long way, there is no short term solution, and when I say short term I mean in the next 20-50 years. So buckle up.... taking a few hits is inevitable. The real problem is that I don't think any of us(American Government) is patient enough to go the long way.
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Postby Shining Eye » Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:43 am

Well, I completely disagree with you, Ol’ Scratch. Look to Israel as an example. They set out, built a barrier wall (that a lot of Bleeding Hearts cried foul over) and assassinated the leadership of Hamas and the homicide-bombing has dropped off to zero. They have profiling, tight security and militarized borders, don’t they? You can’t argue with what works, can you? Personally, I could give a shit less if any non-American was offended because we tightened security to meet the threat and militarized our borders. What will it finally take for some people to pull their heads out of their asses and wake up? 30,000 dead innocent Americans?, 300,000? 3 million?

And I know I ain't alone in accepting on taking a "few inevitable hits." You or your family might be collateral damage in one of them.
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