DP: Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

The Black Flag Cafe is the place travelers come to share stories and advice. Moderated by Robert Young Pelton the author of The World's Most Dangerous Places.

Moderator: coldharvest

Re: DP: Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Postby Kurt » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:38 pm

friendlyskies wrote:I was told that Sikhs wear turbans because they aren't supposed to cut their hair, and it gets all nasty and dready and in their face if they just let it flow wild and free. Most of my friends who were Sikhs cut their hair, though. And wore western clothes. They said it wasn't that big of a deal. Kind of like most Catholics use condoms every now and then, I guess.

They're also supposed to carry weapons at all times - and not just ceremonial ones. Seems like that religious edict might have come in handy. Oh well. We should start running a BFC betting pool about the next US mass shooting.


A friend of mine is a Sikh (he is a short haired Sikh who starts getting all shaggy and stubbly before he goes to visit his parents so they don't hassel him as much) and he says that they have to keep it combed and clean. No law against not doing it really but there is no law in my office that says "wash your pits" and most people do because they enjoy being clean. But it is apparently very difficult keeping that hair and beard clean and tangle free and then tucked away in a turban (not the word but you know what I am talking about).

One thing that is required by their religion is that they always be armed with a blade of some kind and always be willing to fight back.
And from thence they went to Beer....(Num 21:16)
USMLE tutors
Thwarting Chinese Hackers
SmartMuni for iPad
User avatar
Kurt
In Manus Manus
 
Posts: 18530
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:29 am
Location: New York City

Re: DP: Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Postby Hellman » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:40 pm

There are extremists in every political group. When they attack like this, its not the Mein Kampf that pushed them over the edge. It's a psychological problem, paired with a political position which is altered to justify their behavior.

So I disagree this is inherently based on some kind of race war. Notwithstanding the aryan nation tattoos, it's the mental disorder that separates him from most (otherwise harmless) bigots.
User avatar
Hellman
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:01 am

Re: DP: Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Postby muskrat » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:49 pm

The shooter Wade Page was a "frustrated neo-Nazi" who led a racist white supremacist band, the Southern Poverty Law Center said.

Page was also an ex army repairman before switching jobs to become one of the army's psychological operations specialists assigned to a battalion at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. He was trained to use leaflet campaigns in a conflict zone or use loudspeakers to communicate with enemy soldiers. He never deployed overseas.

I think we get the picture here.
the Rat is less about criminality per se but the importance and sheer fun of using one's intellect, skill and willpower to carve a survival niche into whatever inhospitable environment one finds oneself. Damn the imposed morality of the overlords. F
User avatar
muskrat
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 2279
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:17 am
Location: get lucky country

Re: DP: Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Postby friendlyskies » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:07 am

muskrat wrote:The shooter Wade Page was a "frustrated neo-Nazi" who led a racist white supremacist band, the Southern Poverty Law Center said.

Page was also an ex army repairman before switching jobs to become one of the army's psychological operations specialists assigned to a battalion at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. He was trained to use leaflet campaigns in a conflict zone or use loudspeakers to communicate with enemy soldiers. He never deployed overseas.

I think we get the picture here.


Whoa. He's the goddamned bobsy twin of the Fort Hood murderer, amirite?

Prior to the shooting, Hasan had expressed extremist views which had been brought to the attention of his superiors and the F.B.I. Hasan was discovered to have exchanged emails with Imam Anwar al-Awlaki asking for spiritual guidance regarding violence....Hasan joined the Army while in college and became a psychiatrist at Fort Hood, Texas. He had never been deployed overseas.


Image Image
Separated at birth?

They're almost the same guy. Good grief. Both in worthless hate groups that never panned out into the glorious race war that would somehow vindicate their loser existences. Hasan was 40, Page was 39, both were pretty much worthless human beings who had managed to find a niche doing psychological crap for the US Army. Clearly no one trusted them in combat situations. And they decided to open fire on a group of people they knew would be unarmed, like cowards. Weird, imo. I wonder what meds they were on, I bet the same ones.
"4 cylinder Camaro=communism" El Presidente

"You can smoke salmon but it's not quite the same as smoking heroin." nanuq
User avatar
friendlyskies
Vata Loca
 
Posts: 6782
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:36 pm
Location: Atlantis

Re: DP: Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Postby Kurt » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:12 am

Frustrated Neo Nazi? I wonder if there are any Neo Nazis who are content?

The Neo Nazi who did not shoot up anything was sitting in the La-Z-Boy recliner during the incident. When asked about his views on race he said "I only like white people and I am pretty "chill" about it. Race mixing is an abomination to Odin, but hey...let him deal with it right?"
And from thence they went to Beer....(Num 21:16)
USMLE tutors
Thwarting Chinese Hackers
SmartMuni for iPad
User avatar
Kurt
In Manus Manus
 
Posts: 18530
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:29 am
Location: New York City

Re: DP: Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Postby nanuq » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:19 am

They're almost the same guy.


Almost a shame Page was killed. It would have been fascinating to see how their trials and sentencing would have played out, especially in the media. Will the ones calling for the death penalty for Hasan have done the same for Page?
Last edited by nanuq on Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
nanuq
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 2841
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:50 am
Location: Canada

Re: DP: Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Postby friendlyskies » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:34 am

All the skinheads and white supremacists I've ever come across in my life (and some of them were really nice, awesome people to me.... but then, I'm white) have been waiting for the revolution to come and restore them to their rightful superiority over slaves and Latinos or whoever. They didn't have the charisma, balls, or numbers to start the revolution themselves, but they KNEW they weren't supposed to be roofers or unemployed or strippers or whatever - they were meant to be kings and queens. I assume other black/Islamic/whatever supremacists suffer similar delusions of compromised grandeur, though they perhaps don't have the "Bell Curve" as quasi-academic justification for their misguided belief that they would have been successful, had they been competing on an even playing field, rather than suffering the slings and arrows of affirmative action.

But as they grow older, and even other white people make it clear that they'll never amount to anything, and wouldn't have even in antebellum Atlanta, they get sad and depressed... and desperate. Remember this guy?

Image

Buford Furrow? He was a security guard for some Aryan Nation thing and even made it onto a Michael Moore TV show. Went nuts when he was 39 years old and shot a bunch of fucking kids at a Jewish daycare center in Los Angeles. WTF. It's a pattern.

But that Breivik guy, for example, doesn't fit into that pattern. He was 32, probably would have accomplished something in his life, planned his massacre really carefully instead of just marching into a basically random place a firing blindly into the crowd.... it isn't the white supremacy, or even the mass murder, that makes the pattern. It's something else, a peculiar type of insanity....
"4 cylinder Camaro=communism" El Presidente

"You can smoke salmon but it's not quite the same as smoking heroin." nanuq
User avatar
friendlyskies
Vata Loca
 
Posts: 6782
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:36 pm
Location: Atlantis

Re: DP: Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Postby Hellman » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:04 am

Reminds me of a quote from Hitchens describing suicide bombers,"The problem is not so much that they desire virgins as that they are virgins; their emotional and mental growth irremediably stunted in the name of God, and the safety of many others menaced as a consequence of this alienation and deformation."

Substitute "virgin" with frustrated 32 y/o who's off his meds, substitute "God" with AR propaganda, and it starts to make more sense.
User avatar
Hellman
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:01 am

Re: DP: Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Postby AztecDave » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:17 pm

if my memory serves me correctly, we fought a war against national socialism. so why is it permitted in the US? did this fuckbag have courtesy (or guts) to kill himself before this thing endex'd?

i'll bet anybody a bottle of their favorite this guy was a piece of shit soldier as well as a piece of shit human.
'If you don't read the newspaper, you 're un-informed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed.' mark twain
User avatar
AztecDave
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 755
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:26 pm
Location: Germania

Re: DP: Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Postby Kurt » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:54 pm

AztecDave wrote:if my memory serves me correctly, we fought a war against national socialism. so why is it permitted in the US? did this fuckbag have courtesy (or guts) to kill himself before this thing endex'd?

i'll bet anybody a bottle of their favorite this guy was a piece of shit soldier as well as a piece of shit human.


That was in the days before we fought wars against ideologies. It was only later that the Nazism was added so that we could justify fighting Communism.
And from thence they went to Beer....(Num 21:16)
USMLE tutors
Thwarting Chinese Hackers
SmartMuni for iPad
User avatar
Kurt
In Manus Manus
 
Posts: 18530
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:29 am
Location: New York City

Re: DP: Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Postby sparrow » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:25 am

AztecDave wrote:if my memory serves me correctly, we fought a war against national socialism. so why is it permitted in the US? did this fuckbag have courtesy (or guts) to kill himself before this thing endex'd?

i'll bet anybody a bottle of their favorite this guy was a piece of shit soldier as well as a piece of shit human.

Mental illness Dave. Some things just can't be helped. The immediate availability of some types of guns for these types doesn't help a lot either. There are a lot of unbalanced individuals out there.
Mexican drug cartel? (funny how one never hears the term "American Drug Cartel")
~seektravelinfo
User avatar
sparrow
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 3794
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 10:14 pm

Re: DP: Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Postby Naveen » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:31 am

Strictly speaking, I think many of these shooters aren't insane*, unless you consider fixed ideologies a mental illness, but then half the world would be insane. I've had the misfortune of meeting a few neonazis (all of them women, for some reason) and they had disgusting beliefs, I remember one of them laughing when she saw the news about the Haiti earthquake. She also believed in a lot of non-racial related crap, alternative medicine bullshit and god knows what more (and she was a vegetarian who loved animals in the same proportion she hated 3/4 of the human race). She was a nutjob, but wasn't insane in a clinical sense, she didn't suffer from any psicoses, mania or depresion and was, in fact, quite mentally balanced (besides, you know, believing shit). She would never go postal killing jews, but that's because she is a coward, has a family, a job, friends (don't know how), and a lot of cats (and she doesn't own any guns, doesn't know how to use them, and it's not easy to buy them here anyway), but I'm sure she would praise, perhaps not publicly, anyone for doing that. But if she didn't have any of those things, if she were a man (for some reasons, seems to help if you want to be a mass murderer) and if she had a few guns... yeah, perhaps she would consider something like that.

*That Holmes guy excluded and similar ones
User avatar
Naveen
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 359
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:58 pm
Location: SN 1572

Re: DP: Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Postby dicey » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:07 pm

As a Sikh (convert, of northern European stock) I'd like to add a bit to this discussion. Our appearance owes a lot to the Muslim oppression during the reign of Aurangzeb (Mughal dynasty). In the early days there was no requirement to wear or carry anything. Sikhs were just people who followed (or tried to) the teachings that originated with the pragmatist Guru (teacher) Nanak, a Brahmin-born present day Pakistani. These three teachings are honest, hard daily work, sharing of its fruits, and meditation on God (and, importantly, there are many paths to God, not just ours, or one). It should be noted that our God, my God, has quite distinct connotations and shouldn't be (mis)understood within the Abrahmic lens (specifically with regards to non-duality; i.e. our “understanding” of God isn't as some entity wholly separate from us, and certainly not something to be feared).

Aurangzeb was a real prick. In disgusting contradiction to his father (or grandfather) Akbar, Aurangzeb alienated the Hindu elite and started Islamifying his territory. You know, something like the Taliban. He did this because he believed Mughal decline was related to their not being Muslim enough. The usual BS of forcing people to convert or be slaughtered was the rule of the day. Long story short, one of the things he dictated was that only Muslims could wear turbans. Guru Gobind Singh, whose father was beheaded for not converting to Islam (his two young sons also martyred), said enough was enough. As an “in your fucking face” move he said that all his Sikhs, the Khalsa, would wear the turban and everything else. It's a uniform. It supports us in our desire to adhere to our code of conduct, and it told the Muslims they were going to have to fight, or give up their oppressive ways. They fought. If you didn't know, the Sikhs eventually took over Pakistan and Afghanistan and ruled for a bit. I think what brought down that empire was the British and their fear of a Sikh-Gorkha alliance...

We wear the turban to stand out so as to induce fear in an enemy and comfort those who we will protect (even those who don't like us because of our hairy faces, funny “hat”, or whatever). We wear the steel bangle as a symbol of our courage and to remind us to behave righteously. We wear “loose fitting shorts”, or regular underwear these days, out of a sense of modesty (as opposed to the naked or half-naked sadhus that run around India). We don't cut our hair because that was the way we were created, or evolved, if you prefer. And we carry the kirpan (lit. the hand of mercy) and/or any other weapon in case we are called to protect society from some “evil”. In observing this tradition on the whole we can't hide from our only ritual and primary calling: “sewa”, or self-less service to humanity.

As a rule, Sikhs don't want to fight. We want to work hard, serve society (without making any distinctions in regards to religion or gender or anything else—all are equal), and lead a spiritual life. But, if some oppressive force (historically Islam for the most part) moves in and refuses to even tolerate other beliefs, doing so in a violent way, then, after ALL peaceful means have been exhausted, violence on the part of Sikhs becomes obligatory (to protect Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, atheists, satanists, everyone not being an intolerant shithead). The pacifists paradox (e.g. what to do about cases like Hitler, Pol Pot, etc.) is, in theory, nonexistent in Sikhism.

Sikhism, if you ask me, is also American as apple pie. We want to participate in an interdependent society (note the symbolic nature of clean and combed hair—that has spiritual value in itself—distinguishing us from the Hindu, Jain, and Buddhist renunciates), and respect, as opposed to merely tolerating, other peoples beliefs.
dicey
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:33 am

Re: DP: Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Postby svizzerams » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:23 pm

I appreciate the time you took to post this - Thank you - I don't know much about the Sikh belief system or its history, so this is very interesting. :-)
Joan of Arc went to battle with nothing
but the voices in her head
and a well-sharpened sword ~ Charlotte
User avatar
svizzerams
Rx Rangerette
 
Posts: 5750
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:00 am
Location: Drug Goddess of Chelanistan

Re: DP: Sikh Temple in Wisconsin

Postby svizzerams » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:29 pm

Naveen wrote:Strictly speaking, I think many of these shooters aren't insane*, unless you consider fixed ideologies a mental illness, but then half the world would be insane. I've had the misfortune of meeting a few neonazis (all of them women, for some reason) and they had disgusting beliefs, I remember one of them laughing when she saw the news about the Haiti earthquake. She also believed in a lot of non-racial related crap, alternative medicine bullshit and god knows what more (and she was a vegetarian who loved animals in the same proportion she hated 3/4 of the human race). She was a nutjob, but wasn't insane in a clinical sense, she didn't suffer from any psicoses, mania or depresion and was, in fact, quite mentally balanced (besides, you know, believing shit). She would never go postal killing jews, but that's because she is a coward, has a family, a job, friends (don't know how), and a lot of cats (and she doesn't own any guns, doesn't know how to use them, and it's not easy to buy them here anyway), but I'm sure she would praise, perhaps not publicly, anyone for doing that. But if she didn't have any of those things, if she were a man (for some reasons, seems to help if you want to be a mass murderer) and if she had a few guns... yeah, perhaps she would consider something like that.

*That Holmes guy excluded and similar ones


Interesting perspective - I would agree that not all shooters are insane in the technical sense. There are beilef systems that are toxic - like the white supremicists - and having lived near the Aryan Nation stronghold in N. Idaho I have witnessed first hand their arrogance and hate. But when you couple those toxic beliefs with a personality disorder (which although a mental disorder - it isn't an organic pathology) such as sociopathic personality disorder then you have an individual who will act out of a sense of entitlement and malice. It is difficult to "treat" personality disorders because they don't believe they are in need of treatment - just those around them.
Joan of Arc went to battle with nothing
but the voices in her head
and a well-sharpened sword ~ Charlotte
User avatar
svizzerams
Rx Rangerette
 
Posts: 5750
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:00 am
Location: Drug Goddess of Chelanistan

PreviousNext

Return to Black Flag Cafe

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests