What if? Hypothetical situation here.

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What if? Hypothetical situation here.

Postby seektravelinfo » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:30 pm

A friend surmised this the other day, something that had never occurred to me. He said that the biggest mistake of this country was The Civil War, that "the South" had never gotten past it (true) and that Lincoln should not have freed the slaves, that succession should have happened with the North moving on with their own (smaller) country, leaving the South to their slave economy.

It seemed like am awful thing to think, to me, as slavery is so terrible, and the war a necessary evil to rid America once and for all of the evil of slavery.

But, what would have stopped continuous uprisings Nat Turner style of Black chattel? Maybe they could have pulled it off with support of England & other European nations and maybe the southern half of the former union would have ended up an African descendant led nation, getting rich off cotton.

How would this have affected the move west to conquer new territories? How would the Indians have fared?

Anyway, this was brought up last week and I can't quit thinking about it.
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Re: What if? Hypothetical situation here.

Postby nowonmai » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:30 pm

seektravelinfo wrote:A friend surmised this the other day, something that had never occurred to me. He said that the biggest mistake of this country was The Civil War, that "the South" had never gotten past it (true) and that Lincoln should not have freed the slaves, that succession should have happened with the North moving on with their own (smaller) country, leaving the South to their slave economy.

It seemed like am awful thing to think, to me, as slavery is so terrible, and the war a necessary evil to rid America once and for all of the evil of slavery.

But, what would have stopped continuous uprisings Nat Turner style of Black chattel? Maybe they could have pulled it off with support of England & other European nations and maybe the southern half of the former union would have ended up an African descendant led nation, getting rich off cotton.

How would this have affected the move west to conquer new territories? How would the Indians have fared?

Anyway, this was brought up last week and I can't quit thinking about it.


Yeah rich like Zimbabwe.

The inability to think clearly or logically due to fraudulent wishful thinking about human nature is going to ensure that the next 100 years is going to be much more violent than the last 100 years. The longer it takes to properly erupt the deeper will be the lakes of blood.

I can see enclaves and alliances opening up in ways that would be unthinkable now. But if history is around to judge western civilisation it is going to surmise that it really screwed the pooch.

Buckle up. Mind you, most of this skeleton board will be dead before the cheques get properly cashed.
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Re: What if? Hypothetical situation here.

Postby kinderdigi » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:33 am

nowonmai wrote:
Yeah rich like Zimbabwe.

The inability to think clearly or logically due to fraudulent wishful thinking about human nature is going to ensure that the next 100 years is going to be much more violent than the last 100 years. The longer it takes to properly erupt the deeper will be the lakes of blood.

I can see enclaves and alliances opening up in ways that would be unthinkable now. But if history is around to judge western civilisation it is going to surmise that it really screwed the pooch.

Buckle up. Mind you, most of this skeleton board will be dead before the cheques get properly cashed.


Spot on. Clean water, fresh air and money/power. A knowledge areas safe from wind currents that might carry fallout, makes those properties of great value.
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Re: What if? Hypothetical situation here.

Postby grawp » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:11 am

My Lady Seeks,

I commend to your reading library the book "Underground Airlines," by Ben H. WInters (ISBN #0316261246).
The author posits a United States where Abraham Lincoln was assassinated in 1861 in Indianapolis while on his way to Washington to be inaugurated as the 16th President.
Lincoln's assassination shocks the nation teetering on the brink of civil war, and galvanizes both houses of Congress, who in Lincoln's honor pass a compromise authored by Stephen Douglas and John Breckenridge that effectively re-writes the Constitution, affirms the Supreme Court's Dred Scott decision that slaves are property, not human beings and therefore cannot be emancipated, puts legal teeth into the Fugitive Slave Act, and tasks the US Marshals office to pursue, collect and return said "property" to their rightful owners, throughout all of the United States and its territories, and that fugitive slaves aren't safe if they cross the Ohio River. Now they have to reach Canada.
"No Lincoln" means no War Between the States, the Abolitionist Movement is dismissed as just another crackpot idea that never got anywhere. and the United States of America survives the crisis, albeit a very different USA than the one we know.

Fast forward to 2015. The USA is still around, but a pariah internationally because of slavery; it got us tossed out of the United Nations. Only four states of the USA (called "The Hard Four") are considered to be slave-holding states: Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and Carolina (North & South Carolina merged soon after the Lincoln Decision) their economies are still plantation-based, though now the plantations are multinational textile and clothing corporations. Because slavery is outlawed internationally, no more slaves can be imported by the Hard Four, so they have to resort to the (ahem) black market or (ahem) grow their own.

The book follows Victor, an escaped slave who was captured by the Marshals and forced to become a bounty hunter, searching for and assisting in catching runaway "Contract Laborers." Gradually, Victor realizes that there really is an Underground Airlines movement (similar to our 19th Century's Underground Railroad.) He also finds out that Hard Four corporations are funding research in cloning as a new way to augment their shrinking workforce.

The book is a good read, fast-moving and a real attention-holder.
You can get it on Amazon for $15.35.

Check it out.
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But they will never love us, for we have too much audacity!

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Re: What if? Hypothetical situation here.

Postby rickshaw92 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:27 am

kinderdigi wrote:
nowonmai wrote:
Yeah rich like Zimbabwe.

The inability to think clearly or logically due to fraudulent wishful thinking about human nature is going to ensure that the next 100 years is going to be much more violent than the last 100 years. The longer it takes to properly erupt the deeper will be the lakes of blood.

I can see enclaves and alliances opening up in ways that would be unthinkable now. But if history is around to judge western civilisation it is going to surmise that it really screwed the pooch.

Buckle up. Mind you, most of this skeleton board will be dead before the cheques get properly cashed.


Spot on. Clean water, fresh air and money/power. A knowledge areas safe from wind currents that might carry fallout, makes those properties of great value.




Back to yer Seth Whoever thread mach. And don't forget yer meds!
Im reallly fuclimg pissed but fespite that I can still hit a tarfet at 1000m plus. mayVRVe bnot tonight but it qint beyond the wit if man. Nowhammy.
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Indians would still be stuck with the Brits untill 1947

Postby el3so » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:16 pm

seektravelinfo wrote: succession
It is your native tongue and national history not mine.
seektravelinfo wrote:the war a necessary evil to rid America once and for all of the evil of slavery.
Never mind.
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Re: What if? Hypothetical situation here.

Postby seektravelinfo » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:59 am

SECESSION


I am corrected.
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Re: What if? Hypothetical situation here.

Postby sparrow » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:54 am

Let's consider,


America’s Long History of Warfare
October 8, 2017
Save
Image

Americans like to view their country as a force for peace in the world when the historical reality is almost the opposite, a reality ignored by the PBS Vietnam War documentary, writes Lawrence Davidson.

By Lawrence Davidson

If you go to the Wikipedia page that gives a timeline of U.S. foreign military operations between 1775 and 2010, you are likely to come away in shock. It seems that ever since the founding of the country, the United States has been at war. It is as if Americans just could not (and still cannot) sit still, but had to (and still have to) force themselves on others through military action.

Photos of victims of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam galvanized public awareness about the barbarity of the war. (Photo taken by U. S. Army photographer Ronald L. Haeberle)

Often this is aimed at controlling foreign resources, thus forcing upon others the consequences of their own capitalist avarice. At other times the violence is spurred on by an ideology that confuses U.S. interests with civilization and freedom. Only very rarely is Washington out there on the side of the angels. Regardless, the bottom line seems to be that peace has never been a deeply ingrained cultural value for the citizens of the United States. As pertains to foreign policy, America’s national culture is a war culture.

It is against this historical backdrop that the recent Ken Burns 18-hour-long documentary on the Vietnam War comes off as superficial. There is a subtle suggestion that while those American leaders who initiated and escalated the war were certainly deceptive, murderously stubborn and even self-deluded, they were so in what they considered to be a good cause. They wanted to stop the spread of Communism at a time when the Cold War defined almost all of foreign policy, and if that meant denying the Vietnamese the right of national unification, so be it. The Burns documentary is a visual demonstration of the fact that such a strategy could not work. Nonetheless, American leaders, both civilian and military, could not let go.

What the Burns documentary does not tell us – and it is this that makes the work superficial – is that none of this was new. Almost all preceding American violence abroad had been rationalized by the same or related set of excuses that kept the Vietnam slaughter going: the Revolutionary War was about “liberty,” the genocidal wars against the Native Americans were about spreading “civilization,” the wars against Mexico and Spain were about spreading “freedom,” and once capitalism became officially synonymous with freedom, the dozens of bloody incursions into Central and South America also became about our “right” to carry on “free enterprise.” As time went by, when Washington wasn’t spreading “freedom,” it was defending it. And so it goes, round and round.

A Ghastly Process

Understanding the history of this ghastly process, one is likely to lose all faith in such rationales. However, it seems obvious that a large number of Americans, including most of their leaders, know very little of the history of American wars (as against knowing a lot of idealized pseudo-history). That is why Ken Burns and his associates can show us the awfulness of the Vietnam War to little avail. The average viewer will have no accurate historical context to understand it, and thus it becomes just an isolated tragedy. While it all might have gone fatally wrong, the American leaders were assumed to be well intentioned.

President Lyndon Johnson meeting with South Vietnamese President Nguyen van Thieu on July 19,1968.
Image

Describing the Vietnam War in terms of intentions is simply insufficient. In the case of war the hard-and-fast consequences of one’s actions are more important than one’s intentions. The United States killed roughly 2 million Vietnamese civilians for ideological reasons that its own leaders, and most of its citizens, never questioned.

Most of its citizens, but not all. There was, of course, a widespread and multifaceted anti-war movement. The anti-war protesters were, in truth, the real heroes, the real patriots of the moment. Along with the accumulating body bags, it was the anti-war movement that brought an end to the slaughter. However, once more Burns’s documentary comes off as superficial.

Burns leaves the viewer with the impression that the only truly legitimate anti-war protesters were veterans and those associated with veterans. But those were only a small part of a much larger whole. Yet the millions of other Americans who protested the war are essentially slandered by Burns. The documentary presents them as mostly Communist fellow-travelers. We also see various representatives of that non-veteran part of the movement apologize for their positions. There is the implication that the movement had bad tactics.

Here is an example: one of the points that the Burns documentary makes is how distasteful was the labeling of returning soldiers as “baby killers.” Actually this did not happen very often, but when it did, one might judge the charge as impolitic – but not inaccurate. You can’t kill 2 million civilians without killing a lot of babies. If we understand war in terms of the death of babies, then there might be fewer wars.

U.S. leaders also sent 58,000 of their own citizens to die in Vietnam. Why did these citizens go? After all, this was not like World War II. North Vietnam had not attacked the United States (the Bay of Tonkin incident was misrepresented to Congress). The Vietcong were not Nazis. But you need an accurate take on history to recognize these facts, and that was, as usual, missing. And so, believing their politicians, the generals, and most of their civic leaders, many draftees and volunteers went to die or be maimed under false pretenses.

The inevitable post-war disillusionment was seen by subsequent U.S. leaders as a form of mental illness, and they labeled it “the Vietnam Syndrome.” The “syndrome” was as short-lived as popular memory. In March 2003, President George W. Bush invaded Iraq under false pretenses and U.S. forces proceeded to kill half a million civilians.

In the end, American behavior in Vietnam was not just tragically flawed – it was criminal. But it was also historically consistent – an expression of a long-standing and deep-seated war culture, a culture that still defines the American worldview and has become the very linchpin of its domestic economy. That is why the wars, large and small, never stop.

A Gun Culture, Too

America’s propensity to violence in other lands is but one side of a two-sided coin. Callous disregard for civilian lives abroad is matched by a willful promotion of violence at home. That willful promotion is the product of a right-wing ideological orientation (stemming from a misreading of the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution) that demands a nearly open-ended right of all Americans to own an almost unlimited number and types of firearms. The result is gun regulation laws that are embarrassingly ineffective.

Air Force F-105s bomb a target in the southern panhandle of North Vietnam on June 14, 1966. (Photo credit: U.S. Air Force)”

Again, the consequences of this position are much more profound than any claim that its supporters’ intentions are to defend citizens rights to own guns. Since 1968 about as many Americans have been killed in-country by gun violence (1.53 million) as have died in all of America’s wars put together (1.20 million). The numbers are too close to be dismissed as coincidence. Both reflect a culture of exceptionalism that grants at once the United States government, and its citizens, extensive rights to act in disregard of the safety and security of others.

You would think Americans would recognize an obvious contradiction here. You cannot maintain a safe population and, at the same time, allow citizens the right to own and, largely at their own discretion, use firearms. Nonetheless, some Americans imagine that they have squared this circle by claiming that their guns are for “self-defense” and therefore do make for a safer society.

This is just like the U.S. government’s constant exposition that all its violence is committed in the name of civilization and freedom. In both cases we have a dangerous delusion. Ubiquitous gun ownership makes us unsafe, just as does the endless waging of war.

The inability to see straight is not the sort of failing that can be restricted to one dimension. If you can’t grasp reality due to ideological blinkers or historical ignorance, you are going to end up in trouble both at home and abroad – not just one place, but both.
[imghttps://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/bombinginvietnam.jpg][/img]

And, the more weaponized you are, both as a state and as a citizen, the greater the potential for disaster. In the end the United States cannot stop killing civilians abroad unless it finds the wisdom to stop killing its own citizens at home – and vice versa. That is the U.S. conundrum, whether America’s 320 million citizens realize it or not.
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Re: What if? Hypothetical situation here.

Postby nowonmai » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:15 pm

I hate America wah wah wah
Anyday, any year, ad infinfuckingitum

I hate America wah wah wah

By Take Yerpick

I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah

I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah

I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah
I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah
I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah
I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah
I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah I hate America wah wah wah

And in conclusion

I hate America wah wah wah

Peace or something
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Hugh Thompson Jr.

Postby el3so » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:56 pm



But seriously, some Band of Brothers-esque Vietnam era miniseries is due.
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