U.S. Constitution's representation of a modern democracy

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Re: U.S. Constitution's representation of a modern democracy

Postby Kurt » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:03 am

Kind of hard to argue that the US is great cuz of guns when we hit 370000 dead as of today.

Oh,and the Putsch attempt that was probably a superspreader event.

Just out of curiousity, those who say this is a civil war, as in that they are fighting it right now..are they serious or kidding?
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Postby el3so » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:37 pm

Kurt wrote:Just out of curiousity, those who say this is a civil war, as in that they are fighting it right now..are they serious or kidding?
There will be a series of trials, social media is already cracking down, persecution complex always easy for fringe groups, the added stress from the pandemic. Sad but safe to say there will be more occasions for grandstanding and outrage ending in more violence. No offence but Trump is done for.
Add in the BLM protests and it has like a watershed feel to it. Those are never pretty.
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Re: U.S. Constitution's representation of a modern democracy

Postby Tarkan » Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:14 am

ROB wrote:They will rest pretty lightly this afternoon when I go to the pub with some friends. Even the old ones. Unencumbered by a epic fuck up of a response to Covid. Because we actually shut down derpy cunts like you.


Dude, I live in Texas. We've been able to go to the bar since mid-April.

They shut down in California, but it hasn't done them any good. You're just lucky you live on an island filled with cunts that no one wants to go visit.
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Re:

Postby Tarkan » Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:25 am

el3so wrote:
Kurt wrote:Just out of curiousity, those who say this is a civil war, as in that they are fighting it right now..are they serious or kidding?
There will be a series of trials, social media is already cracking down, persecution complex always easy for fringe groups, the added stress from the pandemic. Sad but safe to say there will be more occasions for grandstanding and outrage ending in more violence. No offence but Trump is done for.
Add in the BLM protests and it has like a watershed feel to it. Those are never pretty.


Social media isn't cracking down, they'll full on jumped the shark, and tech is basically instituting 1984 style censorship and erasing history. There's going to be a whole lot of right wingers without a lot to lose after the left goes after their jobs, their families, etc, for attending a protest or donating or voting for Donald Trump. They aren't going to be content with sticking it to the people that went past the barriers and into the building.

And...just like magic, the left loves the US flag, they love cops. Suddenly, the left is horrified by non-peaceful protests (despite encouraging people to take to the streets and burn shit down for the last 6 months).

And the FBI was johnny on the spot arresting people that invaded the Capitol but proved to be oh-so-inept at arresting the people that tried to burn down the Federal courthouse buildings in Portland and burned down a couple of police precincts elsewhere.

I'll be moderately surprised if either Biden (health) or Trump (assassination) make it another year.

I don't see a path out of this that doesn't end in tyranny and bloodshed, because neither side appears to want any sort of rapprochement.
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Re: U.S. Constitution's representation of a modern democracy

Postby Kurt » Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:46 am

Usually when people say "this is a civil war" I think it is fair to take them at their word.

It wont be like the civil war or even the American Revolution. It will be opportunistic and druggie like Colombia.

When I was in Bogata years ago people I met assured me Colombia had a bad rap and pointed out that Bogota was safer to walk around that Quito and Panama City so I said "Can I rent a car and drive to Cartegena?"
"No! You will be killed"
Thats what the US Civil War will be like.
Seems strategic that big tech cut off comms and other places cut off finances.
If it is war.
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Re: U.S. Constitution's representation of a modern democracy

Postby ROB » Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:07 am

No Trump fan, but tech cutting off coms is a seriously large can of worms.
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Re: U.S. Constitution's representation of a modern democracy

Postby Tarkan » Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:25 am

Kurt wrote:Usually when people say "this is a civil war" I think it is fair to take them at their word.

It wont be like the civil war or even the American Revolution. It will be opportunistic and druggie like Colombia.

When I was in Bogata years ago people I met assured me Colombia had a bad rap and pointed out that Bogota was safer to walk around that Quito and Panama City so I said "Can I rent a car and drive to Cartegena?"
"No! You will be killed"
Thats what the US Civil War will be like.
Seems strategic that big tech cut off comms and other places cut off finances.
If it is war.


The US Civil War wasn't really a "civil war". It was a war between two opposing states that had formerly been one state. If we are on the verge of a real civil war, this one will be more like other civil wars - non-state actors going up against other non-state actors and the Federal Government. As no non-state entity can stand up to the US military, it would be, by necessity, a 4th generation dirty war. However, the ability to just go around assassinating people is becoming more and more limited due to the ubiquitousness of devices that track one's location, from cell phones, to On-Star on vehicles, to networked cameras at most houses and businesses, traffic cameras, and license plate scanners. The US (and presumably, others) has technology that can mesh satellite and drone sensing data, and traceback a vehicle from incident to wherever it originated from, and while urban drone surveillance isn't anywhere near total, once things kick off to any degree, it would become more so.

The US Federal law enforcement agencies have already signaled - for the last four years - that they are on team Democrat (or team Deep State, since the reality is there isn't really a whole lot of difference between establishment Democrats and Republicans), so I think a dirty war would go bad for conservatives. In effect, conservative death squads would get rolled up, while I suspect the left-wing death squads would be allowed to operate with more or less impunity. The Democrats/Deep State might even use false flags against their own to clean up a few perceived unreliables and justify even more crackdowns against the right and the people in flyover country.

Cutting off comms IS a good strategy in a civil war Kurt, but it's also one of those actions that, when taken too soon, sort of kick it off as well. It's an escalation. Twitter and Facebook had no problem when their platforms were used to overthrow the governments in the Ukraine and the Middle East. AWS shutting down Parler is ridiculous, and it - along with a lot of other things - shows why these companies need their Section 230 immunity revoked and for some of them to be broken up via Antitrust. The irony there is, of course, is that the Democrats probably leaned on the tech companies to shut off the comms or otherwise they would do exactly that. So the quid pro quo means no action will be forthcoming.

I do think there was electoral fraud and theft in Georgia, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. And it'll never be investigated. The Democrats figured out all you need is a single county to subvert a state. Pennsylvania defied a Supreme Court order, put together all the provisional ballots with the regular ballots so there was no way to unwind either. Fulton County shredded the ballots (IIRC) so a hand recount or a vote audit was impossible. Having gotten away with it and given a pass by the media and the state and Federal justice systems and courts, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't do it again. On the flip side, a lot of conservatives are now convinced that voting is a waste of time, and so, if it doesn't go hot, the Democrats may not even need to cheat to win the next one and the one after that because a lot of Trump voters aren't going to show up again - and certainly not for a Romney or whoever the Deep State, the media, and the Democrats approve to run against them on the GOP ticket.
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Re: U.S. Constitution's representation of a modern democracy

Postby Kurt » Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:27 am

ROB wrote:No Trump fan, but tech cutting off coms is a seriously large can of worms.


Comms are about Terms of Service.

They just cannot violate US law about who they serve.

Freedom of speech means the government cannot restrict or arrest people for wjat is said.

There are alternate ways of getting speech out. Gab.ai uses Mastodon, the US Postal Service even offeres subsidized rates for printed media.

The thing is we are trying to let all views be aired, cuz that is what we have always done. Thats what makes us comfortable but a large portion of places like Parler were calling on killing elected officials, burning liberals alive and saying "this is war".

Is it war when someone declares war on you? The last time the US capitol was breeched by political partisans what did we do?
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Re: U.S. Constitution's representation of a modern democracy

Postby Tarkan » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:08 am

Kurt wrote:
ROB wrote:No Trump fan, but tech cutting off coms is a seriously large can of worms.


Comms are about Terms of Service.

They just cannot violate US law about who they serve.

Freedom of speech means the government cannot restrict or arrest people for wjat is said.

There are alternate ways of getting speech out. Gab.ai uses Mastodon, the US Postal Service even offeres subsidized rates for printed media.

The thing is we are trying to let all views be aired, cuz that is what we have always done. Thats what makes us comfortable but a large portion of places like Parler were calling on killing elected officials, burning liberals alive and saying "this is war".

Is it war when someone declares war on you? The last time the US capitol was breeched by political partisans what did we do?


If it were really about ToS, then Twitter would have been shut down a long time ago.
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Postby el3so » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:45 am

Tarkan wrote:
Kurt wrote:
ROB wrote:No Trump fan, but tech cutting off coms is a seriously large can of worms.

Comms are about Terms of Service.

If it were really about ToS, then Twitter would have been shut down a long time ago.
Can't disagree with this.
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Re: U.S. Constitution's representation of a modern democracy

Postby Kurt » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:15 am

Tarkan wrote:
Kurt wrote:
ROB wrote:No Trump fan, but tech cutting off coms is a seriously large can of worms.


Comms are about Terms of Service.

They just cannot violate US law about who they serve.

Freedom of speech means the government cannot restrict or arrest people for wjat is said.

There are alternate ways of getting speech out. Gab.ai uses Mastodon, the US Postal Service even offeres subsidized rates for printed media.

The thing is we are trying to let all views be aired, cuz that is what we have always done. Thats what makes us comfortable but a large portion of places like Parler were calling on killing elected officials, burning liberals alive and saying "this is war".

Is it war when someone declares war on you? The last time the US capitol was breeched by political partisans what did we do?


If it were really about ToS, then Twitter would have been shut down a long time ago.


Yep, but enforcement of rules is never static either.

For example the 6pm Curfew is DC is not really "Ok everyone inside" but rather "I would like to charge you with something and since you are out during curfew I now can detain you"

Even most Terms of Service state they are often flexible in adhering to it and it is pretty much their choice whether they adhere to their own standards.

That has been a common practice of businesses for years.

In my home town there was no ordinance enforcing "No shirt, no shoes, no service" but the signs were everywhere. They were never used for the family taking a break from swimming to get some cokes and use the toilet but it was certainly saved for the crazy guy yelling for beer and the woman who thought she could be topless everywhere because technically the law did not prohibit women from being topless in public.

Businesses develop standards to protect themselves and not have to deal with bullshit (or sometimes, also in the case of "No shirt, no shirt, no service" poor people)

Hell, I am not even saying "Rights should go out the door when someone declares war on you" I am saying that their declaration of who they are and what their intentions are should be taken seriously until they recant or back down.

Someone declares war on me I am not going to let them put "KILL KURT" signs up in my yard. Hell, I would probably ban all signs from my yard at that point so I did not have to waste time to edit them.
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Postby el3so » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:39 am

Tarkan wrote:The US Civil War wasn't really a "civil war". It was a war between two opposing states that had formerly been one state.
Oh man, you tell me I am wrong in distinguishing between Arabs and Africans because they live on the same continent (Africa) but if it comes to your own country's history you want to get away with claiming 7 (later 11) vs 20 (plus 5) states is just 2 states and 36 states are actually just 1?

Tarkan wrote:Twitter and Facebook had no problem when their platforms were used to overthrow the governments in the Ukraine and the Middle East.
Doubt they had to worry about possible legal issues with a bevvy of US government agencies or backlash from advertisers in either of those situations. It sucks but it is true.
Figure it's part money/power struggle and part being caught way behind in the digital part of both political communication and controlling the narrative.

President Biden will have his work cut out. I wish him well.
I will be burned again.
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Re:

Postby Tarkan » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:26 am

el3so wrote:
Tarkan wrote:The US Civil War wasn't really a "civil war". It was a war between two opposing states that had formerly been one state.
Oh man, you tell me I am wrong in distinguishing between Arabs and Africans because they live on the same continent (Africa) but if it comes to your own country's history you want to get away with claiming 7 (later 11) vs 20 (plus 5) states is just 2 states and 36 states are actually just 1?
[/quote]

State = country. The states within the USA and CSA were subordinate to their respective national governments. Are you still bitter about the Africa thing?
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Postby el3so » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:55 am

Tarkan wrote:Are you still bitter about the Africa thing?
The Africa thing I specifically mentioned in my post? ;-)
Never been bitter about it, I consider it friendly ribbing and will admit you were technically correct. Which is of course the best kind of correct.
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