Shooting in Denver

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Shooting in Denver

Postby Kurt » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:28 pm

A TV crew hired an armed Pinkerton guard to protect them at protests. The guy they hired looked like a he ran a CBD booth at a Phish concert.

You'd think if they hired an armed security guard they would go for someone who projected the image "I am an armed security guard and this news crew are my clients" Sorta buzz-cut, sort of uniformed but not too cop-like. Maybe a shirt that said "Armed Security Guard" but for some reason they decided to hire a guy who could "blend in" ...shaggy hair, young-ish and wearing a hoodie. Not the best choice.

He was apparently contracted through Pinkerton. I have yet to hear of a Pinkerton to ever be convicted of shooting someone, but he was a "Contractor for Pinkerton" and he was not a licensed armed guard in Denver (The rest of Colorado does not need that license).

I know two people who were there and non of them knew what the hell was going on. They both saw a different conflict where a MAGA and a BLM started to flight but two level headed MAGAs intervened and stopped the flight, one MAGA led the fighting MAGA away while the other MAGA let the BLM guy yell at him, yelling somewhere else, gunfire and a guy sprawled out and another guy surrendering to cops.

I think the lesson here is to hire security guards who look like security guards and if there is a situation that you would not show up at unless you were armed then maybe don't go there in the first place.
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Re: Shooting in Denver

Postby Kurt » Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:55 pm

Pinkerton is owned by a Swedish company called Securitas AB

Swedish.

Anyway, if I were the victim's family, since this is America, I would sue the shooter, then the affiliate that hired him, then the parent company of the news affiliate, then Pinkerton and then Securitas AB.

It should be interesting to see if they can get the first degree murder charge to stick. Since he was hired as security it could be argued that he had no intention of going there to shoot someone, even though he brought a gun.

But, since he was not licensed in Denver it can also be argued that he had no business showing up there armed and therefore since he came armed, he intended to shoot someone. Sort of what the Tubby short kid in Wisconsin was charged with.

Dolloff (the shooter) was not, as far as I can tell, ex-military or ex-cop but he was an organic bee farmer who sold honey and pollen at gun shows out west. His politics seemed to be more Lincoln Project than radical left. He posted about mouring Charles Krauthammer when he died as well as giving a hat tip to some leftist radio host named Michael Brooks, who also died.

Does not seem like a Pinkerton hire unless he padded his resume with details he picked up attending gun shows while selling organic honey.

The victim, Lee Keltner was a hatter. As a middle aged man who covers up shortcomings with hats I think this is especially tragic.

He did, however, have multiple convictions ranging from assault, unsafe firearm transit (reduced from reckless use of a firearm), and illegal concealed weapon convictions. Past convictions, of course, never equals "need to be shot" nor does current crime being committed.

I think they should throw the book at the honey farmer and the tubby kid with equal velocity. Start to show that there are severe consequences for showing up at a protest armed and actually using your weapon. If a place is so bad that you don't feel safe without a gun then, perhaps, don't go there.

And make sure you are licensed ...and don't hire a honey farmer to protect you or have tubby kids walking around at night with an AR-15.
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Re: Shooting in Denver

Postby Tarkan » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:01 am

Shooter's name is Doloff. He's a OWS OG, has the Antifa space invaders tattoo on his arm. He was part of a team that included Jacob Kelly (the black guns matter agitator), the 9News producer, a 9News photographer, and an independent photographer. The owner of 9News is who organized the counter protest to the "Patriot Rally". Barriers and police were put up to separate the two groups but Kelly apparently got in to the patriot side by being one of the "press" people initially then separated to cause an incident.

Allegedly 9News didn't know Doloff was armed. Doloff was contracted through Pinkerton but via another sub. He wasn't licensed in Denver as a security professional and there are a lot of rules there, so there's a chain of liability that means the sub, Pinkerton, and 9News are probably going to have to pay out big.

Keltner - the guy Doloff shot in the face - slapped Doloff then backed away about 6-8 feet as Doloff quick drew and shot him. After Doloff drew down Keltner raised his mace/pepper spray and probably reflex sprayed when he was shot.

Will be an interesting court case because there are some modest elements of plausible self defense and a shitload of liability for the companies involved in hiring Doloff. If I had to guess, he'll walk on murder 2 and get voluntary manslaughter UNLESS they can get premeditation conspiracy involving the other players.
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Re: Shooting in Denver

Postby Kurt » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:52 pm

I don't buy the "Pepper Spray as death reflex" thing.

I do buy the "Pepper Spray as I see a guy with a gun and I am going to spray him before he shoots" type thing.

I think this is going to be more of a lawsuit-y thing than a conspiracy thing. We have years of legislation and court cases backing the "rights" of Armed Guards, either hired or self-declared and many of those years have been backing the "Rights" of Armed Pinkertons.

Subcontractor or not.

I think he will skate, after much hand-wringing because these "rules" or court cases were designed so labor agitators and pinkos could get shot by people.

Keltner's family could (and should) sue "up the chain". If they sue Dolloff then that might mean Dolloff's liability means the News 9 Teams liability which would then mean the contractor's liability which would then move up to Pinkerton and then to their Swedish parent company.

I was sued once for chain liability (not even sure if that is the term...sounds good though) where I was sued and if I settled that would have made the local franchisee of Ryder Truck Corporation liable, my employer liable and Ryder International liable. It was a flimsy case where a guy driving blood to a hospital lost control of his car and crashed into my truck in my lane. His company and the hospital he was driving from and the hospital he was driving to were sued also.
The moment I was sued I instantly had one really large corporation and two small ones backing me with a legal team. The case dragged out for 8 years hoping someone would crack but we didn't and I won.

Some places in the US practice civil law as outlined by Blackstone in the 1670s where an employer is always liable for the actions of an employee while they are in employment. So if I was sued for an accident in a Blackstone state (don't know if that is a term either but Blackstone's commentary on English law is available for free on Amazon Kindle) while doing work for my employer only my employer would be liable, not me, not the other corporations who leased the trucks, just the person who hired me for the task.

OWS does not mean "Leftist" many of the "Unite The Right" folks were also OWS vets. In fact that was where I first heard the term "Alt-Right" was during OWS, it meant a Conservative who was opposed to Wall St. bailouts so they protested with lefties.

I have heard people speculate about the Antifa tattoo but did anyone actually confirm this? Like get a close up of the tattoo from Police booking photos and information or was it just that photo where you could see he had a tat on his wrist?
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Re: Shooting in Denver

Postby Tarkan » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:10 pm

I don't think Doloff skates completely.

The slap by Keltner, had Keltner continued to engage would give a reasonable self-defense claim (Keltner being much bigger than Doloff), but...Keltner backed up, and only raised the pepper spray after Doloff cleared leather. I could see an honest acquittal, but I actually think Rittenhouse is a more clear cut case of self-defense, because Rittenhouse was attempting to retreat each time he was attacked and shot, while Keltner was attempting to retreat when Doloff shot him.

As for the licensing - the licensing is (mostly) immaterial to the self-defense claim Doloff will make. Not being licensed won't make self defense suddenly become murder. What it does do, however, is create civil liability for Doloff all the way up to 9News. Presumably, Pinkerton has indemnification language with the contract with their sub-contractor they hired Doloff from. But a jury could still decide that Pinkerton and 9News have civil liability, civil juries being civil juries.

Re: OWS and UTR, if you go far enough left or far enough right, eventually you connect at the ends. There are a lot of similar criticisms of government and policy at both ends of the American left/right paradigm. The idea that the mingling of corporate interests and government interests has created a behemoth that doesn't give a shit about the majority of Americans is neither a left-wing nor a right-wing idea.

That's one of the weird things about Trump and it sort of mystifies me why he's so polarizing to people on the left. If you listen to the guy, he's:
1) anti-war.
2) anti-globalization
3) pro gay rights
4) pro universal health care

Vs:
1) anti-abortion
2) against large scale immigration

Policy wise, he's pretty moderate for a Republican - more moderate than Bush 43 or Bush 41 or Reagan, but he's literally been transformed into this Hitleresque boogie man by the left. It's perplexing to me. I really think had the Democrats cozied up to Trump after he was elected, they could have gotten a lot of their legislative agenda passed - Trump would have been receptive to it, and it would have given moderate Republicans the cover they needed to go along.

Globalism, immigration, and war are the three areas where the Democratic Party and the Republican Party align and converge to fuck over America.
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Re: Shooting in Denver

Postby Kurt » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:10 pm

I agree with you Tarkan on the Globalisation and immigration part.

I don't really see Trump fighting for universal health care .

My problems with Trump are:

1. Shit at Pendemic handling. I mean really shit. We got a president who basically hosts and attends super-spreader events.
2. Cruelty in locking up immigrants (illegal) and separating parents from children and forced hysterectomies. Japan is the most anti-immigration country outside of North Korea and even they have a policy of keeping families together. Japan shows you can be rabidly anti-immigrant and not be a total dick about it.
3. Kompromat. Until I started my job in ICS/SCADA security I just believed that Trump had a Putin boner. the kind that lots of weak American men get when they see someone projected as strong and in charge. But now that I see the goings on of who attacks us, what they attack and what our policy is about talking about it so the President does not cut funding, I would place money on his being a Russian asset. A State actor is the only thing that could cover his massive debt.
4. He's bent. I do not see him giving up the Office of the presidency if he loses.

What I like about Trump.

1. Stopping postal subsidies of products from China (Which he has not done yet...but he at least addressed it)
2. Seeing H1-B program for what it was, bringing over cheap foreign labor in place of often older American labor.
3. No expansion of foreign wars and no new foreign wars.

If he just had 3 or 4 in the dislike category I would support him (Yep, I would knowingly vote for a Russian agent...unless he was really, super smart and did not have Golf to distract him). Those two flaws can be cleaned up or removed. The 1 and 2 of things I hate about Trump are too permanent for me to ever support him.
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Re: Shooting in Denver

Postby Tarkan » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:35 am

Trump is about to abandon START and is promising a new arms race with Putin. Pretty sure he’s not KOMPROMAT or a Putin agent. Putin is smarter than Trump, but he was smarter than Clinton, Bush, and Obama also.
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Re: Shooting in Denver

Postby Kurt » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:41 pm

Tarkan wrote:Trump is about to abandon START and is promising a new arms race with Putin. Pretty sure he’s not KOMPROMAT or a Putin agent. Putin is smarter than Trump, but he was smarter than Clinton, Bush, and Obama also.


About to and Promising are the key words there.

There was probably a dead drop somewhere that said "Stop sucking my cock"
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Re: Shooting in Denver

Postby snaark » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:11 pm

Kurt wrote:I would place money on his being a Russian asset. A State actor is the only thing that could cover his massive debt.


Most of Trump's debt is owed to Deutsche Bank (see the articles in the New York Times recently, cos I can't be arsed finding the link). But that doesn't mean the Russians don't have him by the nutsack. My guess is he did some dodgy deal with the government over Trump Tower Moscow (because that's just how it works in Russia) and they will hold it over him indefinitely (because that's just how it works in Russia). But yeah, the chances of him being a Russian asset are 100%.
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Re: Shooting in Denver

Postby Alphabet » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:09 pm

snaark wrote: But yeah, the chances of him being a Russian asset are 100%.




Proof?
#White Lives Matter.
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Re: Shooting in Denver

Postby snaark » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:21 pm

Proof? I ain't got no proof! I don't need no proof! I don't have to show you any stinking proof!
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Postby el3so » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:15 pm

Tarkan wrote: more moderate than Bush 43 or Bush 41 or Reagan, but he's literally been transformed into this Hitleresque boogie man by the left. It's perplexing to me.
Dunno man, figured it was all part of US political debate being more vibrant than over here, what with the two party system and people still believing the democratic process somehow producing competent leaders spiel. Both Bushes were vampires craving oil and the blood of innocents, Obama was a muslim agent without citizenship, what they write/wrote about the Clintons is entertaining as long as you do not think about it not being a parody...
Tarkan wrote: I really think had the Democrats cozied up to Trump after he was elected, they could have gotten a lot of their legislative agenda passed - Trump would have been receptive to it, and it would have given moderate Republicans the cover they needed to go along.
You are probably right. Too late now.
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Postby el3so » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:26 pm

Kurt wrote: 3. No expansion of foreign wars and no new foreign wars.

I remember when James Mattis was made head DOD, you could practically taste people starting to stack arab bodies in their sick fantasies, Mad Dog and Trump going in for the big win. Didn't happen, kudos for that.
Dude got burned on the teranos blood scam, guess he didn't read the right books or do due diligence all the time after all.
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