US Voter Supression

The Black Flag Cafe is the place travelers come to share stories and advice. Moderated by Robert Young Pelton the author of The World's Most Dangerous Places.

Moderator: coldharvest

Re: US Voter Supression

Postby Kurt » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:04 pm

In short: A pure democracy is nothing more or less than two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for dinner.


This quote first appeared in 1987 falsely attributed to Benjamin Franklin. Then it got adopted by the anti-democracy Originalist Usenet in the 1990s which was the first time a falsely attributed "Founding Father" quote merged with the "Original Originalists" who formed after Brown Vs. Board of Education and was really promoted by Sam Ervin (when you watch TV show and there is a character claiming to be a "Simple Country Lawyer" with a Southern Drawl who defends something revolting...that is a parody of Sam Ervin) and adopted by segregationists to this day.
User avatar
Kurt
In Manus Manus
 
Posts: 22018
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:29 am
Location: New York City

Re: US Voter Supression

Postby Lost Boy » Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:12 pm

Kurt wrote:
In short: A pure democracy is nothing more or less than two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for dinner.


This quote first appeared in 1987 falsely attributed to Benjamin Franklin. Then it got adopted by the anti-democracy Originalist Usenet in the 1990s which was the first time a falsely attributed "Founding Father" quote merged with the "Original Originalists" who formed after Brown Vs. Board of Education and was really promoted by Sam Ervin (when you watch TV show and there is a character claiming to be a "Simple Country Lawyer" with a Southern Drawl who defends something revolting...that is a parody of Sam Ervin) and adopted by segregationists to this day.


How quaint that you smear the origins of the quote without actually addressing its merits. It is diversionary, cowardly, and intellectually dishonest.

Kurt, living under a majority mob rule is great if you are a mobber with nothing of value to contribute to society, and all you know how to do is take and appropriate what others have produced. If peoples' property is not secure from a mob, neither are their rights. Society cannot exist if property is not protected from mob appropriation.
"If a principle exists it must be immutable, for that is what a principle is - a truth standing apart from the mood of the times." - Jeff Cooper
User avatar
Lost Boy
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:31 pm
Location: California

Re: US Voter Supression

Postby Kurt » Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:24 pm

Lost Boy wrote:
Kurt wrote:
In short: A pure democracy is nothing more or less than two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for dinner.


This quote first appeared in 1987 falsely attributed to Benjamin Franklin. Then it got adopted by the anti-democracy Originalist Usenet in the 1990s which was the first time a falsely attributed "Founding Father" quote merged with the "Original Originalists" who formed after Brown Vs. Board of Education and was really promoted by Sam Ervin (when you watch TV show and there is a character claiming to be a "Simple Country Lawyer" with a Southern Drawl who defends something revolting...that is a parody of Sam Ervin) and adopted by segregationists to this day.


How quaint that you smear the origins of the quote without actually addressing its merits. It is diversionary, cowardly, and intellectually dishonest.

Kurt, living under a majority mob rule is great if you are a mobber with nothing of value to contribute to society, and all you know how to do is take and appropriate what others have produced. If peoples' property is not secure from a mob, neither are their rights. Society cannot exist if property is not protected from mob appropriation.


So you want me to address the merits of a wolf / sheep analogy?

I would say the above Analogy simplifies a complex topic so much as to be really stupid on it's own and without the shitty fake quote using an esteemed person to prop it up.

But a pure democracy would not entail a legal territorial monopoly of governance since governing would be by consent of those participating. That would probably lead to it's own weaknesses and allow for exploitation by more cohesive states but it would allow for unlimited succession and also exiling (Ostrikons) as well.

But pure democracy does not exist, however a democratic process does, and everyone within the territory of the governed should be able to participate.
User avatar
Kurt
In Manus Manus
 
Posts: 22018
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:29 am
Location: New York City

Re: US Voter Supression

Postby Lost Boy » Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:50 am

Kurt wrote:I would say the above Analogy simplifies a complex topic so much as to be really stupid on it's own and without the shitty fake quote using an esteemed person to prop it up.

But a pure democracy would not entail a legal territorial monopoly of governance since governing would be by consent of those participating. That would probably lead to it's own weaknesses and allow for exploitation by more cohesive states but it would allow for unlimited succession and also exiling (Ostrikons) as well.

But pure democracy does not exist, however a democratic process does, and everyone within the territory of the governed should be able to participate.


It is one thing to "participate." It is another entirely to be granted the ability to simply vote to appropriate the property of another. The whole point of a constitutional Republic is to protect the rights of an individual against the whims of the majority.
"If a principle exists it must be immutable, for that is what a principle is - a truth standing apart from the mood of the times." - Jeff Cooper
User avatar
Lost Boy
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:31 pm
Location: California

Re: US Voter Supression

Postby snaark » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:11 pm

Lost Boy wrote:The whole point of american republicanism is to protect the rights of an individual against the whims of the majority.


Fixed that for you.
User avatar
snaark
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 2230
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:43 am
Location: Germany

Re: US Voter Supression

Postby ROB » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:33 am

When I think nobody could be as thick brick fucking dumb as the last twat we run off this board, somebody always steps up.
User avatar
ROB
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 6220
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:49 am

Re: US Voter Supression

Postby svizzerams » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:43 pm

Darcy wrote:
svizzerams wrote:I'm so close to Canada at times my cell phone switches to Rogers cell service. And yet I can't cross over. I'm really disappointed in this country at the moment. GQP (yep GQP not a typo). Fingers crossed I'll get to come to Nunavut in Sept.


Headed to Nunavut next week, ferrying up a small helicopter from Montreal to Pond Inlet, some 2000 plus mile. I will probably spend most of 2021 around the Northern end of Baffin. See ya in September!


I'm jealous!!!
Joan of Arc went to battle with nothing
but the voices in her head
and a well-sharpened sword ~ Charlotte

...those without swords can still die upon them...

Illegitami non carborundum est
User avatar
svizzerams
Rx Rangerette
 
Posts: 6413
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:00 am
Location: Drug Goddess of Chelanistan

Re: US Voter Supression

Postby svizzerams » Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:21 pm

Lost Boy wrote:The Founders originally had the idea that only landowners should be able to vote, and though an argument can be made that they were misguided in doing so, an argument can also be made that universal suffrage will inevitably lead to the downfall of a free republic. The Founders' logic in requiring a person to own land in order to vote was simple. They believed that people who had a stake in the country would take their vote more seriously, and would also be less likely to vote to appropriate the property of their neighbor. When the United States was founded, it was founded on fiercely libertarian principles, and the government was rightly feared from growing too large or powerful. Thomas Jefferson stated that any government powerful enough to provide you with everything you need also has the power to take away everything you have.

Unfortunately, when a person is on government assistance, they tend to vote for those people that promise to keep the free meal ticket funded, and increase misguided welfare programs. Furthermore, those political parties that advocate for more government benefits for the poor also have no incentive to actually help the poor improve their situation. If they become successful, they no longer need the handouts, and begin resenting the amount of taxes they must pay. Their votes then change to those who advocate for fiscal conservatism and a solvent spending strategy. This causes the tax and spend politicians to lose votes. Therefore, their political power is actually dependent upon keeping their constituency poor and dependent on the government, and actually increasing the number of people that vote and need government subsidy to survive. This is of course a doomed long-term strategy, as the parasite will eventually overcome the host. In reality, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Someone is paying for it, and if those receiving taxpayer funds outnumber those who actually contribute to the tax coffers, and their votes are allowed to hold as much weight, than it is only a matter of time before the economy collapses due to wasteful fiscal policies. This has historically always resulted in a dictatorship.

In short: A pure democracy is nothing more or less than two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for dinner.


The founders also thought that slaves were to be counted as 3/5ths of a person. How can you say a 'free republic' when a majority of the people were denied the right to vote and have a say in how they were governed- it was only free for a select few. The rest of the 'sheep' were subjects of the land-owning 'wolf' in such a scenario. Do those land-owning wolves not have undue power over the rest of the society, holding the majority hostage to what is in their perceived best interest (usually "more for me, less for you")? Autocracy by fiat? Autocracy by any other name is just as oppressive to those left out even if you call it a 'free republic". Good that the notion was eventually abandoned, with the exception of the delay suffrage for women, followed by the suppression of the vote of black people (yeah, it's a real thing).

If you look at various models of governance around the world I'd suggest that the Scandinavian countries have the most successful outcomes overall, unless your only measure of success is how much money the richest have. They have balance between capital/free enterprise & social programs that appears to work well for societal happiness, access to education & healthcare that provides equity among all citizens. In America, is our goal that he who dies with the most wealth wins with bonus points if it is at the expense of those around them and you got away with destroying the environment that should be a common good, like clean water & air? Personally, I resent paying taxes that subsidize corporate or private profit-making, when their workers are paid so little they qualify for government social programs. The Walmarts of the world should be paying a living wage and provide full benefits to workers just as what I as a professional white collar worker would expect in a decent job. Any business, complaining if it pays its workers a living wage and provides benefits can't survive, shouldn't have a place in our marketplace. That is essentially slavery with a stipend. I support universal guaranteed healthcare for that very reason. Universal healthcare would relieve businesses of that expectation. Our current system has decreed providing healthcare should be borne by business (unless, wink-wink, they can find ways get away with not providing it). In the USA the sole end game is to generate profit, using up our human capital & natural resources at the fastest rate possible with the smallest input. In other words - socialize costs & privatize profits. Then throw in a dash of christofascist theocracracy to justify the whole mess. That seems like the definition of a failed state to me.
Joan of Arc went to battle with nothing
but the voices in her head
and a well-sharpened sword ~ Charlotte

...those without swords can still die upon them...

Illegitami non carborundum est
User avatar
svizzerams
Rx Rangerette
 
Posts: 6413
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:00 am
Location: Drug Goddess of Chelanistan

Re: US Voter Supression

Postby Bronco » Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:56 am

A simple test of values of either party is: If it's about business and money, it's Republican. If it's about people and humanity, it's Democratic.
"I used to care, but things have changed"
Bob Dylan
User avatar
Bronco
Old Man On The Mountain
 
Posts: 2354
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:05 am
Location: Just Passin' Through..

Re: US Voter Supression

Postby snaark » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:12 am

Bronco wrote:A simple test of values of either party is: If it's about business and money, it's Republican. If it's about people and humanity, it's Democratic.


Jesus, you make the democrats sound like Medecins san Frontieres. Judging by how minted some Dems are, I guess that people and humanity is a pretty lucrative business.
User avatar
snaark
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 2230
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:43 am
Location: Germany

Re: US Voter Supression

Postby ROB » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:12 am

Bronco wrote:A simple test of values of either party is: If it's about business and money, it's Republican. If it's about people and humanity, it's Democratic.



Yeah those Obama drones were all about humanity.

Mainly annihilating it from 3 miles up.
User avatar
ROB
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 6220
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:49 am

Re: US Voter Supression

Postby Kurt » Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:38 pm

ROB wrote:
Bronco wrote:A simple test of values of either party is: If it's about business and money, it's Republican. If it's about people and humanity, it's Democratic.



Yeah those Obama drones were all about humanity.

Mainly annihilating it from 3 miles up.


Smart Killers Vs. Dumb Killers.

Bush was a dumb killer. He used B-52s to bomb weddings. Obama was smart because he used drones to bomb weddings. They literally did the same thing pretty much everywhere and in every aspect of Government but Obama is lauded and Bush is damned.

Obama killed without bluster and that is the way to do it.

Of course the trick is to elect a non-killing President....I doubt I am gonna see that in my lifetime.
User avatar
Kurt
In Manus Manus
 
Posts: 22018
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:29 am
Location: New York City

Re: US Voter Supression

Postby sparrow » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:55 pm

Interesting. So these tin pot dictators around the world are in fact, emulating the American way. Someone should spread the word.
Be brave, always be brave
User avatar
sparrow
Canadia
 
Posts: 4291
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 10:14 pm

Re: US Voter Supression

Postby Tarkan » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:23 pm

Bronco wrote:A simple test of values of either party is: If it's about business and money, it's Republican. If it's about people and humanity, it's Democratic.


LOL.

Or said differently:

if it's about infantilizing adults, it's Democratic.

You see, it's humane that Democrats want to take choice and personal responsibility from people and give it to the elites. After all, they know what's best for you. And apparently, what's best for you is for the Democratic President's coke head son to get rich off peddling influence and access to his father. Remember, it's all about the people!
I'd whore myself out just one more time if I knew who to screw to get out of this grind.
User avatar
Tarkan
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 6027
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:57 am
Location: Texas

Re: US Voter Supression

Postby Tarkan » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:26 pm

snaark wrote:
Bronco wrote:A simple test of values of either party is: If it's about business and money, it's Republican. If it's about people and humanity, it's Democratic.


Jesus, you make the democrats sound like Medecins san Frontieres. Judging by how minted some Dems are, I guess that people and humanity is a pretty lucrative business.


I've said this in the past...most people judge themselves by their intentions, and others by the effects.

Everyone is the good guy in the story of their life.

People like Bronco extend that to their tribe. Democrats are just trying to do good things. They are the protagonist in his little story. Every protagonist needs an antagonist. The Republicans therefore must be the evil to be overcome for our hero tale to have a happy ending.
I'd whore myself out just one more time if I knew who to screw to get out of this grind.
User avatar
Tarkan
BFCus Regularus
 
Posts: 6027
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:57 am
Location: Texas

PreviousNext

Return to Black Flag Cafe

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 33 guests