God bless the Queen and the .455 boxer cartridge

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God bless the Queen and the .455 boxer cartridge

Postby Caliban » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:38 pm

My retirement present to myself.

The day I finished, with less than work on my mind I went for a walkaround town visiting a few old friends in various shops and establishments. One of those is a friend of near forty years who runs a military antiques shop. My intention was sometime in the near future to buy a quality japanese sword from him, returning to a collecting I did some years ago. We were chatting when I noticed a really nice Indian Police Martini Henry rifle in excellent condition. Bill said to me "Yes its nice but Ive got something in the office you will really like" (Bill, like me used to be a shooter and knows my likes too well!)
Talking from the back of the shop he went on "I only got this at the weekend and haven't shown it to any of the regulars yet. In forty odd years Ive never had one of these in the shop before and only seen a couple at shows, but none with as clean a barrel ad condition as this. I'm keeping it hidden for a while as its so nice and want to have a good look over it, have a good play !"

He walked back in with what I at first thought was a Spencer carbine but it was this.






Image

Image

Image


A Snider cavalry Carbine, crown stamped EIC (presumably for East India Company- which was pretty much just part of the British army in India by the 1870s) The lock mark date is 1878 which is curious meaning it would have been amongst the last issue as seen after that into 1879 they issued the Martini Henry carbine. That possible suggests why the barrel bore is so good. The pictures don't do it justice , the wood is fresh and oiled and the barrel has that smart brown patina to it. The barrel is almost pristine and in all it is eminentley fireable.

As soon as I saw it I said that once he had finished playing with it, if he had a price i mind, I would buy it. Price agreed and handshake.

I picked it up today and while there was speaking to another long time friend, who before retirement was the catalogueist of the armoury section, particularly Japanese swords, at Liverpool Museum. The museum has a fine collection of antique firearms (I know because I had the priviledge of seeing the entire collect ion their archive quite a number of years ago.) Steve said he had never seen one, certainly there isn't one in the museum's collection (which surprised me) Snider rifles yes but no carbine.

Big boys toys. I am over the moon with this and may be using it soon at a range near here. Worth getting it put onto secton1 firearm licence instead of sec 58 antique curiosity don't you think?

Oh, and Ive just read that Ned Kelly carried one !!
"If you sit still the birds shit on you, even Buddha, life's short so get out there and do something"
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Re: God bless the Queen and the .455 boxer cartridge

Postby suwon fish » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:44 am

That's a beautiful piece! Finding such a remarkable weapon must be a good omen for your retirement.

Are you sure it's .455? I normally think of that as a revolver calibre.

I'm no expert on this weapon but wiki gave me this.. It states .577 Snider as being the normal chambering.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider-Enfield

If it is chambered .455 and in pristine condition, you might consider keeping it as a collector. It will certainly increase in value. I would also guess (if .577) ammo would be less available than hens' teeth.

Re: Samuria swords. There were some antique shops around Greenwich market which (20 years ago) had surprsingly good deals on WW II Japanese NCO and officer swords. If you find yourself in the area on a Sunday afternoon, you might benefit from browsing the area.

If you do shoot it, please post pics of it at the range.

Congratulations from a fellow gun nut!
A day should not be praised until the Sun has set, a woman until she is burned, a sword until it's tested, ice until it's crossed or beer until it's drunk - Viking proverb
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Re: God bless the Queen and the .455 boxer cartridge

Postby Woodsman » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:46 am

SAHWEET!

You can get cartridges for this? Very interesting piece.
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Re: God bless the Queen and the .455 boxer cartridge

Postby Caliban » Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:25 pm

suwon fish wrote:That's a beautiful piece! Finding such a remarkable weapon must be a good omen for your retirement.

Are you sure it's .455? I normally think of that as a revolver calibre.

I'm no expert on this weapon but wiki gave me this.. It states .577 Snider as being the normal chambering.



No you are right it is .577 (with I believe a narrowed or necked cartridge) but that didn't fit with the Victorian quote !

It would have been like changing Maxim to M60 in -

"Pity the poor old Hotentot for we have the Maxim and he does not"

This one while a Snider, doesn't carry any marks for Enfield or British small arms although it is Crown marked and has EIC underneath and year 1878. The wood is stamped with the India mark and the brass butt plate stamped with an S but nothing else that I can find yet. Some research called for. 1878 (being the date of the lock assembly) does probably account for it's condition as that is the same year they started replacing them with martini carbines so it may not have seen much in the way of use before storage.

As for ammo. I would imagine near on impossible. However,I know of a retiredofficer, a friend of afriend, who is an anal retentive wizard when it comes to obsolete cartridges and what can be cut down to replace them. I have been reliably informed that he is sourcing and altering a couple of cartridges for me. However, as the barrel is as clean as the breach can be seen to be I probably won't be firing it despite the temptation to.
"If you sit still the birds shit on you, even Buddha, life's short so get out there and do something"
"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I’m happy. I can’t figure it out. What am I doing right?" Snoopy
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Re: God bless the Queen and the .455 boxer cartridge

Postby RYP » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:01 pm

that's the kind of gun you walk into a bar with! Congrats!
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Re: God bless the Queen and the .455 boxer cartridge

Postby lsheldon » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:38 pm

Nice rifle
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Postby el3so » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:07 pm

Nice rifle
Early entry for the 2011 BFC Understatement of the Year award.

Excellent find Caliban.
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Re:

Postby lsheldon » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:25 pm

el3so wrote:
Nice rifle
Early entry for the 2011 BFC Understatement of the Year award.

Excellent find Caliban.


I didn't gush enough? My bad.
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Re: Re:

Postby Caliban » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:09 pm

lsheldon wrote:
el3so wrote:
Nice rifle
Early entry for the 2011 BFC Understatement of the Year award.

Excellent find Caliban.


I didn't gush enough? My bad.


It was gush enough for me.

Ive been doing a bit of gushing over it myself.....what ? too much information? yeah, maybe too much...
"If you sit still the birds shit on you, even Buddha, life's short so get out there and do something"
"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I’m happy. I can’t figure it out. What am I doing right?" Snoopy
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Re: God bless the Queen and the .455 boxer cartridge

Postby Hitoru » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:33 pm

That's a good find.
We all should remember to remember to watch out for that caliber for Caliban.

A Snider squibbed in the jungle -
Somebody laughed and fled,
And the men of the First Shikaris
Picked up their Subaltern dead,
With a big blue mark in his forehead
And the back blown out of his head.
What are you? Some short sighted trigger puller? - RR3 .
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Re: God bless the Queen and the .455 boxer cartridge

Postby lsheldon » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:38 pm

There are some Snider 577 bullets on gunbroker.com, if your friend can get you some brass they might be worth a look.
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Re: God bless the Queen and the .455 boxer cartridge

Postby mapandcompass » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:58 pm

Great rifle, best of luck on finding ammunition for it.

Oh, and congratulations on your retirement!
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Re: God bless the Queen and the .455 boxer cartridge

Postby Caliban » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:03 pm

Hitoru wrote:That's a good find.
We all should remember to remember to watch out for that caliber for Caliban.

A Snider squibbed in the jungle -
Somebody laughed and fled,
And the men of the First Shikaris
Picked up their Subaltern dead,
With a big blue mark in his forehead
And the back blown out of his head.


Wah, good man, one of my absolute favourite Kipling poems. "The grave of the hundred head" (favourite is British soldier - when wounded and left on Afghanistans plains and the women come out to cut up your remains, roll to your rifle, blow out your brains and go to your godlike a soldier - I live my life by that, replacing rifle for beer and Afghanistan for Lime street railway station concourse)
That poem "The grave of the hundred head" came to mind recently in one of the posts on the flag about the Gurkha in Fuckedupistan recently who was sent home for reprimand because when told to bring back evidence of the demise of a taliban commander, took his head and brought that back !
Last edited by Caliban on Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If you sit still the birds shit on you, even Buddha, life's short so get out there and do something"
"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I’m happy. I can’t figure it out. What am I doing right?" Snoopy
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Re: God bless the Queen and the .455 boxer cartridge

Postby Caliban » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:05 pm

lsheldon wrote:There are some Snider 577 bullets on gunbroker.com, if your friend can get you some brass they might be worth a look.


Thanks forthat. Im told he knows which available cases can be cut down and altered to fit. Im hoping for the best
"If you sit still the birds shit on you, even Buddha, life's short so get out there and do something"
"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I’m happy. I can’t figure it out. What am I doing right?" Snoopy
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Re: God bless the Queen and the .455 boxer cartridge

Postby suwon fish » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:18 am

Ten-X Ammunition is the only company I can find still making this round.

We manufacture ammunition for law enforcement, cowboy action,
hunting, long-range rifle competition, and the only ammunition that is safe
and effective for use in first generation antique firearms.


http://www.tenxammo.com/files/Shooter_Direct_Pricing_1-1-2010b.pdf

$140 for 20 rounds, but, they will reload 20 empty cases for $50. They use a replacement for black powder which is much safer in old barrels.

If I loved an antique weapon, I'd shoot factory ammo through it rather than buckshee. I mean no disrespect to your mate and I'm sure he knows his business.

A friend of mine (Sec. 1 RFD) worked in a gun auction house in Birmingham. He regularly came across antique weapons with the chamber ruptured from similar attempts.
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