super cheap and super accurate .22LR...

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Re: super cheap and super accurate .22LR...

Postby Woodsman » Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:49 pm

zj, I think I am going to skip the <$200 .22 and just spend some extra money and get an AR-15 chambered in .22LR from CMMG. I'm probably going to opt for a 20" bbl.

My thought is that it is senseless to buy a non-modular gun and I doubt I can get a modular semi-auto for under $200 that is not a piece of junk. If I get another AR-15, I can eventually get a 6.5 grendel upper receiver w/24" bbl for competitions, long range hunting and the like and use the .22lr for practice since I'll be using the same stock and trigger.

I really am not interested in the .223 rounds, though it's an easy switch up if I ever became interested again.

For the record, Wal-mart has a Remington #597 with a 9x scope on it for $177.00 The stock on it was gray in color and when I hoisted it the gun up, the balance was very good. Easy to stay pinpoint steady with the crosshairs on point with that gun. I hear there are some magazine issues and I don't know how the trigger is (probably not great) because the Wally world policy is keeping the trigger lock on the gun until the gun is sold. The gun has a bull barrel, but no iron sights and the iron sights nor dovetails for sights. I do not know how the sights are attached, but looking at another 597 at a gun store, the rem iron sights were not situated close to the bore nor did they look all that good of quality, and it's not expensive to make decent irons.

The AR-15 is not by any thought of the imagination a "perfect" match for what I want out of a rifle, but it is more modular than most, and I really don't know of another rifle where the upper can be changed out just by dropping a few pins and thus different caliber of rounds can be shot out of it.

I would love to have a semi-auto rifle that had a strong, very steady collapsible target stock with good ergos where just the barrel could be changed out with a barrel sleeve wrench (to specified torque), or locked into place with a well designed mechanism where the receiver was scoped and iron sights were dovetailed to the barrel. If the whole thing with a couple different barrels would be able to fit into a briefcase or small case for storage, that would be just about perfect. I would expect it's available today for $10k by some precision machinist, but that's not exactly in my budget. LOL!
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Re: super cheap and super accurate .22LR...

Postby diamondcutter13 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:28 pm

Woodsman wrote:I would love to have a semi-auto rifle that had a strong, very steady collapsible target stock with good ergos where just the barrel could be changed out with a barrel sleeve wrench (to specified torque), or locked into place with a well designed mechanism where the receiver was scoped and iron sights were dovetailed to the barrel. If the whole thing with a couple different barrels would be able to fit into a briefcase or small case for storage, that would be just about perfect. I would expect it's available today for $10k by some precision machinist, but that's not exactly in my budget. LOL!


XCR is nowhere near $200 but it is sub $3k and available in 6.8 if that floats your boat. Modularity is great, reliability is ok, accuracy is comparable to a stock AR. Alex Robinson needs a kick in the nuts for his customer service but the product is interesting.

http://www.robarm.com/resources/products/xcrlstd/index.aspx
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Re: super cheap and super accurate .22LR...

Postby Woodsman » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:15 pm

Thanks for your comments DC13 - I know about Robinson arms (and a whole lot of the others as well), but $3k is really a bit more than I would like to spend. Bushmaster's ACR is similar and cheaper as well.

Plus, most of the mil-spec targeting companies such as Robinson et. al. do not consider .22LR as a valid chambering since it is not often used in combat roles.

Also, the 6.8 is not an ideal cartridge because the bullets have a limited b.c. compared to the 6.5 bullets which have been developed extensively in competition (The swedes had it right when they designed the mauser). I want to shoot 600y & 1,000y competitions occasionally with it and even set it up for a mile shoot. 6.8 (or 270 short as I like to call it) is not the greatest round for the longer distance shooting.

.260 remington would probably be more what I had in mind, but only AR-10s and LR-308s chamber that one because of its longer COAL. I have considered a LR308 - or rather LR260 (panther arms) (precision is good - and the price is right at around $1k for stock flat top), but alas, I do not know if a dedicated .22LR kit is available for it (doubt it - looked, but haven't seen it). ...and of course, again is the issue of non-take down and/or "stowability".

They are all just forms of various metals, I am not sure why a nice take down rifle isn't available on the market unless they are scared of some idiot putting it together wrong and then suing them for it (probably).

Oh well, one can dream...Unless I find something more suitable, I will probably just purchase a CMMG and build a case for the upper receiver with barrel mounted to it in a diagonal position and the lower, mags and cleaning stuff in the other spaces.

diamondcutter13 wrote:XCR is nowhere near $200 but it is sub $3k and available in 6.8 if that floats your boat. Modularity is great, reliability is ok, accuracy is comparable to a stock AR. Alex Robinson needs a kick in the nuts for his customer service but the product is interesting.

http://www.robarm.com/resources/products/xcrlstd/index.aspx
Last edited by Woodsman on Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: super cheap and super accurate .22LR...

Postby Woodsman » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:19 pm

This is more like it - only wrong platform for the type of shooting I want to do.

http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4734&PN=44
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Re: super cheap and super accurate .22LR...

Postby Hitoru » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:24 pm

If that ak thing runs, that's really sick.
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Re: super cheap and super accurate .22LR...

Postby Woodsman » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:35 pm

Of course I agree with you Hitoru, but I am thinking there has to be something similar in a higher precision platform that is not just another boltie.

Image

Closer to what I have in mind, but not with the 14.5" barrel. Thinking 20" minimum bbl. with the foam recess in the case running diagonal so it would still fit in a fairly small case.

http://newsodrome.com/weapon_news/takedown-briefcase-ar15-rifle-update-20536782

In all honesty, I am probably looking at Porsches when I only have a VW beetle budget, but perhaps there is a way to coax a skilled machinist and/or master gunsmith into helping me build my modular dream rifle at a reasonable price from a fairly stock unit.
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Re: super cheap and super accurate .22LR...

Postby Hitoru » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:44 pm

Build within your budget.
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Re: super cheap and super accurate .22LR...

Postby diamondcutter13 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:56 am

Fair enough, the AR platform would be my choice then but up in Canada the XCR has the benefit of being non-restricted. The AR variants are all restricted here which means on-range use only, major pain in the ass. The XCR is overpriced IMHO for what it is.

If you want to do 600-1000 yd+ 6.5 is definitely better than 6.8. Both grendel and 6.8 are pretty rare beasts up here in Canada due to them being mainly focused on the AR platforms. The cost of ammo versus .223 is just not worth the advantages up here on an AR if all you are punching is paper. Shooting past 600m with a gas gun in competition here is rare too. Shooting 6.5 and .22 on the same platform would pretty have to be an AR of some type unless you go custom I think.

My own take down .22 papoose will be getting a pelican case (similar to the one you posted pics of) with some appropriate tools and equipment included inside.

What kind of long range competition do you like to do? F-Class, service rifle, or just fun shoots?


Woodsman wrote:Thanks for your comments DC13 - I know about Robinson arms (and a whole lot of the others as well), but $3k is really a bit more than I would like to spend. Bushmaster's ACR is similar and cheaper as well.

Plus, most of the mil-spec targeting companies such as Robinson et. al. do not consider .22LR as a valid chambering since it is not often used in combat roles.

Also, the 6.8 is not an ideal cartridge because the bullets have a limited b.c. compared to the 6.5 bullets which have been developed extensively in competition (The swedes had it right when they designed the mauser). I want to shoot 600y & 1,000y competitions occasionally with it and even set it up for a mile shoot. 6.8 (or 270 short as I like to call it) is not the greatest round for the longer distance shooting.

.260 remington would probably be more what I had in mind, but only AR-10s and LR-308s chamber that one because of its longer COAL. I have considered a LR308 - or rather LR260 (panther arms) (precision is good - and the price is right at around $1k for stock flat top), but alas, I do not know if a dedicated .22LR kit is available for it (doubt it - looked, but haven't seen it). ...and of course, again is the issue of non-take down and/or "stowability".

They are all just forms of various metals, I am not sure why a nice take down rifle isn't available on the market unless they are scared of some idiot putting it together wrong and then suing them for it (probably).

Oh well, one can dream...Unless I find something more suitable, I will probably just purchase a CMMG and build a case for the upper receiver with barrel mounted to it in a diagonal position and the lower, mags and cleaning stuff in the other spaces.

diamondcutter13 wrote:XCR is nowhere near $200 but it is sub $3k and available in 6.8 if that floats your boat. Modularity is great, reliability is ok, accuracy is comparable to a stock AR. Alex Robinson needs a kick in the nuts for his customer service but the product is interesting.

http://www.robarm.com/resources/products/xcrlstd/index.aspx
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Re: super cheap and super accurate .22LR...

Postby Caliban » Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:03 pm

Catlover1958 wrote:
zuluninja wrote:my first thread here was asking about a good, cheap .22 rifle. Didn't you tell me to get a 10/22? Price hovers around the $200 mark


I like the old zip gun, but however, those antennna are hard to come by anymore, plus not accurate, when shooting at somebody, like an "Entitlement Person" whose benefits have stopped and are on the "Warpath" reverting back to his jungle habits.



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Re: super cheap and super accurate .22LR...

Postby Woodsman » Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:53 am

diamondcutter13 wrote:Shooting 6.5 and .22 on the same platform would pretty have to be an AR of some type unless you go custom I think.


Yep, AR-15 is probably going to be "it".

My own take down .22 papoose will be getting a pelican case (similar to the one you posted pics of) with some appropriate tools and equipment included inside.


With a modified Butler creek stock, it is a snap to get that one to fit into a briefcase or book bag without a problem. I had one, and they are probably the best current stowable .22LR chambered rifle on the market. The factory stock is too long though, and the forearm is pretty darn short on it. If the trigger was better, the gun would be target grade. The trigger is a pain in the tail to fix too. The bearing surface of the group is friggin' tiny.

What kind of long range competition do you like to do? F-Class, service rifle, or just fun shoots?


I have shot an F-class match, and may shoot others once the finances allow for it, but fun shoots are cheaper shoots, so for now that is what is on my agenda - the reason for the .22LR interest first and foremost. Also, I have told myself that I will not allow myself to accumulate more and more and more guns (among other crap), so another modular gun that is capable of chambering multiple calibers for a variety of uses is more of interest to me. I can think of a whole bunch of reasons why I would like to have it be a take-down modular rifle vs. a typical AR-15 (which I suppose is easy enough to separate the upper and lower with 2 pins), but since the barrel is afixed to the upper pretty solidly, it is not very stowable in a smallish case - especially with a longer barrel on it, unless there is some other way to affix the barrel to the upper receiver. Ideally, it would come apart in three pieces in quick order; the barrel, the upper and the lower. That way, the total length of space in the case would be conserved. Much better for storage than a gun case or having to screw around with a safe. I know that it will not be long before a sporting rifle is available in America that fits this description, but I really am not going to hold my breath (or give up my marksmanship hobby) until it comes out.

So my plan now is to purchase a CMMG .22LR chambered AR with the mil-spec lower sometime fairly soon, and just get an upper later as finances allow. 6.5g match grade uppers are not cheap...and then there is the dies, the brass, the optics...dang I need to win the lotto. :-)
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Re: super cheap and super accurate .22LR...

Postby Woodsman » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:44 pm

I changed my mind. I decided it wasn't worth it to spend $600 on a CMMG just to have the AR-15 lower, and instead spent $187.62, including tax on a Remington model 597 with a 3-9x32 scope mounted to it. (Good ole' wally world)

I will be testing this for precision today.

It feels great in the hand. I disassembled it last night, which requires (2) different hex wrenches. It was a snap, but unfortunately that has to be done every time a proper bore cleaning happens so that is sort of a pita.

The reticle of the scope is pretty thick. I'm thinking it's 1moa at the thinnest section, but I will make a better note of that once I am out at the range later today.

The barrel is a 20" bull, the stock is a HS-Precision style (forget the term of this kind) and it feels great in the hand. I am looking forward to shooting this type of "typical" rifle - it has been nearly 2 years since I have (I think).

This rifle is made in Kentucky, USA. Scope is probably made in China. Only thing suggesting Remington has anything to do with it is the "R" on the windage knob cap. LOFL.

Report coming soon.
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Re: super cheap and super accurate .22LR...

Postby diamondcutter13 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:50 am

Woodsman wrote:I changed my mind. I decided it wasn't worth it to spend $600 on a CMMG just to have the AR-15 lower, and instead spent $187.62, including tax on a Remington model 597 with a 3-9x32 scope mounted to it. (Good ole' wally world)

I will be testing this for precision today.

It feels great in the hand. I disassembled it last night, which requires (2) different hex wrenches. It was a snap, but unfortunately that has to be done every time a proper bore cleaning happens so that is sort of a pita.

The reticle of the scope is pretty thick. I'm thinking it's 1moa at the thinnest section, but I will make a better note of that once I am out at the range later today.

The barrel is a 20" bull, the stock is a HS-Precision style (forget the term of this kind) and it feels great in the hand. I am looking forward to shooting this type of "typical" rifle - it has been nearly 2 years since I have (I think).

This rifle is made in Kentucky, USA. Scope is probably made in China. Only thing suggesting Remington has anything to do with it is the "R" on the windage knob cap. LOFL.

Report coming soon.



wow good price on that, I am jealous of the deals you guys can get down South on guns. Look forward to your range report, I've only shot one of these once just having some fun.
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Re: super cheap and super accurate .22LR...

Postby Woodsman » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:56 pm

Ok, report on yesterday's target shooting and more details on this gun:

1. I found the "Made in China" label inside the knob cover of the windage adjustment knobs. Not a big deal, I assumed the scope was made in China. As for the optics rag, who knows - but likely, it came with the scope as it appears exactly like the rag I have seen with other Chinese made scopes. I have never used these rags on the glass of any of my scopes.

2. Speaking of the windage/elevation adjustment knobs, the cool thing about them is that they do not require a screwdriver to adjust - they actually have a knob on them so you can adjust them with your thumb. Much more field expedient than the typical flat, shallow screws on many of these budget scopes.

3. The elevation and windage knobs state 1 click = 1/4" @ 100y. I tested that since I was shooting from 100y and found that the elevation adjustment was reasonably close to 1/4" @ 100y, since I had to "come up" when using the subsonic target ammo @ 100y vs. using the supersonic target ammo at 25y while sighting in and initial testing of precision.

4. The reticle on this scope is a fairly thick. At 100y on the 9x setting, the crosshairs will cover up a 1/2" black circle (which is what my target consists of), so it is not possible to aim into the circle. I suppose the way to solve this is get a larger bullseye and center the crosshairs in the middle of it, but I prefer seeing my target so I can shoot it.

The reticle is fine for the hunting of any game one would take at reasonable distances with this rifle. It is not my idea of a target scope however, so for me personally, I'm going to center this scope in on the rifle using CCI velocitors @ 75y and use this system as my small-game hunting rig and purchase a much higher power scope for 100y shooting.

After readjusting the scope and mounts that came loose and not centered on the gun from the store, I had to sight in the scope. It would not hit on a 8x11" sheet of paper from 25y, so I went up to 25' where the impact was down and to the right about 5". I then readjusted to center of target, then went back to 25y and shot a 10-shot group with Federal "Automatch", which we all know and love as far as bulk ammo goes.

That 10 shot group measured 0.694" CTC, which isn't going to win any awards, but at least I know the gun is capable. After that, I moved the bench back to 100y and tried a variety of ammo I had on hand.

I would have liked to try velocitors at this range as I suspect they are still supersonic at 100y, but I didn't have any.

All the other high velocity ammo I did have on hand of course went through the supersonic to subsonic destabilization zone and the result was as suspected, around 4-5" groups at 100y.

As for the subsonic ammo, I only had 3 types (other than CBs which I do have some of but didn't bother with), those three were CCI standard velocity, Aguila Golden eagle and Aguila subsonics. The SV states 1070 fps IIRC, which was enough power/speed to power the semi-auto action, but the Aguila Golden eagle (supposedly 1100 fps, but I suspect that is optimistic) and Aguila subsonic did not have enough power to engage the action, so essentially, I had to load and shoot these one at a time.

The best 10 shot group BOX-STOCK went to the Aguila Golden eagle which measured 1.984", and CCI standard velocity did 2.52" The subsonics held about a 3" group, but they were so slow, I could actually see them arc in the 9x scope! and I am certain one hit my 50y target, which is about 5" from a line of sight below my 100y target. Still, nicking the plywood didn't affect its trajectory much as all 10 bullet holes were accounted for in the 100y target.

Obviously, this is not going to win any awards, but I believe this gun is capable of 1 MOA with 1. better fitment of the trigger group, 2. better ammo (Wolf target, Eley Tenex and Green tag come to mind) and 3. A better scope.

I am going to wait to further test this rifle with better ammo after I have changed the scope out and take the trigger, sear and hammer apart to have a look at the contact surfaces which I suspect have some machining marks or other surface irregularities. The trigger has some creep, is fairly heavy (thinking 6#, but I won't know until I measure it) and although it breaks fairly cleanly, it is not as crisp as I suspect it will feel like after I smooth things up some.

I might - just to see if it is capable of better - shoot a 100y target box stock with eley tenex. I suspect I will find a 1.5" (or better) 10 shot group.

It's not quite a tack driver, but surprisingly impressive for such a cheap rifle.

I think overall, this is an exceptional value for < $190 out the door
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Re: super cheap and super accurate .22LR...

Postby diamondcutter13 » Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:59 am

Woodsman wrote:It's not quite a tack driver, but surprisingly impressive for such a cheap rifle.

I think overall, this is an exceptional value for < $190 out the door


Very good value I think, thanks for the good range report.
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Re: super cheap and super accurate .22LR...

Postby Woodsman » Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:51 am

Remington has a $25 rebate on this gun.

Things just got cheaper and more fun for me.

LOL!

$162.62, 2 MOA box stock @ 100y rimfire and I haven't even shot the good stuff through it yet.
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