What are the coolest Gods and Dieties of different cultures?

This Forum is to discuss History and to annoy Fansy and Nowonmai by existing at all.

Postby yorick » Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:47 pm

And why not PAN??

The bearded goat-footed fellow whose music called forth all sorts of commotion including surprise, astonishment, serendipity and synchronicity.

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A literary favourite

Postby SRR » Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:57 am

Salman Rushdie's version of Satan in "The Satanic Verses" was a great symbolic devil..... all he did was sleep, wake up with huge erections, wander around in a daze, then fall back to sleep again.

Meanwhile the 'angel' was killing people left right and centre, women and men were destroying relationships and killing people with impunity, and the whole world was collapsing around him. And he kept on waking up with that same damned erection.

Wonderful symbolism. I was a social pariah for many months in highschool while I read that book.... damned puritans.
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pretty cool exhibition

Postby el3so » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:01 pm

http://www.hetkwaad.nl unfortunately only in Dutch but some cool pics.

It's an exhibition in A'dams royal tropical institute aboiut evil all over the world and through the centuries. Demons, Satan, etc but also Darth Vader are featured. Lasts till 12th of september.
Will definitely check it out between coffee shops and book stores.
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Postby DawnC71 » Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:23 am

But then again the Celts wiped out the Picts which were the true indigenous people of Scotland...so I guess we all have been conquered or Conquerors at some point in our evolutionary history right?

History sucks if you think about it too much.
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Postby Sri Lanky » Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:13 am

Did anyone conquer the Germanic tribes?
Sri Lanky

Postby DawnC71 » Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:38 am

ummmm yeah i believe the romans did
jeeze didn't you see the movie gladiator?
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Postby Sri Lanky » Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:55 am

No,the Germanic tribes destroyed the Roman Empire...they were masters at guerrilla warfare.

In Gladiator they showed the Romans winning that particular battle but the German tribes won the war.

I don't think anyone conquered the Nordic/Germanic peoples....nobody fucked with them. Think Vikings.
Sri Lanky

Postby Stiv » Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:01 pm

The Poles defeated the Teutonic nights in a pretty famous battle. Can't remember the name of it though.

You can read about it in Michener's "Poland".

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Postby DawnC71 » Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:12 pm

I don't think anyone conquered the Nordic/Germanic peoples....nobody fucked with them. Think Vikings.

think MORE THAN ONE germanic tribe.

Caesar and Britain PART 1

Julius Caesar became governor and military commander of the already Roman provinces of Gaul. From 58 BC to 47 BC. He led a number of military campaigns throughout Gaul (now modern day France, Belgium, and parts of Germany, Holland, and Switzerland) To preserve Gaul as a province, Caesar determined to separate it from its foreign enemies and allies. After crushing the Germanic tribes, enemies of Gaul, Caesar desided to invade Britain, an ally of Gaul. The British islanders had helped the Gauls across the chanell to fight against Caesar. Britain, unconquered and close at hand, would prove a dangerous example of independence to Gaul, and therefore must be silenced and taught the power of Rome.. Caesar probably planned an expedition to Britain in 56 BC, a year when the Armorican tribes in the coast of Britanny revolted against the Romans with aid from the tribes of southern Britain. The operation was further delayed by battles with the Morini and Menapi, Belgic tribes who controlled the Straits of Dover. Caesar's first visit to Britain was very brief. In August of 55BC Caesar with two legions across the English Channel to Dover. The Britons met the legionaries at the beach with a large force, including warriors in horse-drawn chariots. After an initial skirmish, the British war leaders sought a truce, and handed over hostages.

The Roman Rule over Germania PART 2
After the death of the victorious general Drusus, 33 years-old Tiberius assumed continuation of the war. In the spring of 8 B.C., he once again crossed the Rhine with a large army.

The Germanic tribes were too weakened from the continuous warfare of the last years to put up any resistance: For four years, they had been attacked every year by superior Roman armies, their settlements had been regularly burnt down, and their fields devastated. In the countless bloody battles and skirmishes during these four years, probably all tribes had lost a significant proportion of their men.

Already in the previous year, the allied tribes had been unable to prevent Drusus' army from marching through their territories. This year promised to be equally unsuccessful. It seemed better to capitulate now - and not to wait until one would be totally defeated and defenseless. Probably out of these considerations, all Germanic tribes sent envoys to the Romans, asking for peace.

Only the Sugambrians had sent no envoy. Emperor Augustus declared he would not make peace with any Germanic tribe unless the Sugambrians joined the peace agreement as well. Under pressure from their neighboring tribes, finally the Sugambrians too sent a large number of their leading politicians to negotiate a peace treaty. In the pragmatic-unheroic, efficient way that was typical for him, Emperor Augustus simply had all these men arrested, and had them brought to several Roman cities as hostages (they evaded this imprisonment by suicide).

Now the Romanes concluded peace treaties with all Germanic tribes: All tribes recognized the Roman rule, and started to pay tribute and provide troops for the Romans. Since no other tribe kept up the resistance, a continuation of the war would have been totally hopeless for the Sugambrians. Therefore the Romans were able to simply deport this leaderless tribe (approximately 40,000 people) to Gaul, where there were enough Roman troops, and no one the Sugambrians could have allied with against Rome: Thus this tribe ceased to be any danger.

For this totally bloodless conquest Tiberius was rewarded with the titles of Imperator and Consul, and a triumph as well. During the following year (7 B.C.) he only had to put down smaller unrest in some places - he didn't need to engage in any major combat operations, since the exhausted Germanic tribes mostly respected the peace and recognized the Roman rule. (In the following year, however, he and his stepfather, Emperor Augustus, got on bad terms with each other, and he resigned as commander-in-chief.)

The newly-conquered area was secured with army routes and camps. In the winter, the Roman army still retreated into the camps along the left bank of the Rhine. But during the entire summer, all strategically important parts of Germania were occupied by Roman soldier camps.

Apart from this military presence, the Romans also set up numerous markets and founded trading posts: Slowly an extensive peaceful exchange of goods began between the Roman Empire and the Germanic tribes, who formerly had to purchase all Roman products indirectly over Gaul. These trading posts probably contributed much to make Germanic people familiar with the Romans' way of life, language, laws and customs.

Besides, countless Germanic men had to (or were allowed to) serve in Roman auxiliary troops. In return, they received generous payment and valuable weapons. Apart from Roman military know-how, they inevitably learned the Roman language, Roman customs, and often even got to know other countries of the Roman world empire: Many Germanic noblemen came to Rome; some even acquired Roman citizenship. A loyal and brave squad of Germanic warriors exchanged their Barbarian huts for the Emperor's palace in Rome - whom they now served as bodyguards. Other Germanic warriors came as far as Palestine, where they served as bodyguards for the tetrarch Herodes, whom the Romans had installed as king of the Jews. A few years later, probably many Germanic men had to fight for the Romans in Pannonia (today's southern Hungary), when an uprising against the Roman rule broke out there. All of these men inevitably acquired 'Romanitas' (Roman way of life and mentality), and after their return to their tribes, they probable passed some of that on to their families and friends.

The Roman commander-in-chief still marched through the tribal areas of Germania with his army every summer - not with the purpose of conquering anymore, but rather to speak Roman law, mediate in tribal disputes, and to remind the allies and subdued tribes of the lasting power of Rome.

In Rome Emperor Augustus contented himself with the title 'first citizen' (Princeps), but in the provinces he let himself be worshipped as a god - appropriate for a man who indeed was mighty like a god, whose every wish was law for over a third of the world's population, and who could order hundreds of thousands of soldiers to crush every resistance to his will.
A temple was dedicated to him in Germania too - in the newly founded Roman City of Cologne, where the Ubians had been settled. Germanic aristocrats became priests of the divine emperor: some years later, for example, the Cheruscans tribe's young Segimundus (Siegmund), a relative of Arminius.

The Romans' rule was so generally accepted that Tiberius' successor Domitius could simply order the Germanic tribe of the Hermundurians to settle down in the former tribal area of the Marcomanians. (The Hermundurians had been wandering around, searching for new land to settle.) This order was promptly obeyed. Besides, Domitius concluded treaties of friendship with the Germanic tribes yet further east, beyond the Elbe river, over whose territory the Romans did not claim any sovereignty.

Otherwise the work of the Roman commander-in-chief consisted mainly in keeping the Germanic aristocrats within the different tribes content, dependant, and obedient: These chieftains' loyalty was the best guarantee for their tribes' peacefulness. Accordingly, the Romans were willing to assist these men whenever they faced challenges at home: E.g, Domitius tried to forcibly repatriate some Cheruscan noblemen who had been expelled - and he probably also tried to restore their power over their tribe.

The failure of this particular endeavor may be a sign that the Roman rule over Germania still wasn't as deeply rooted as the Romans had hoped. Finally in 2 A.D., the Chaucians and Cheruscans dared to start an uprising. Over the following two years, the Roman commander Domitius would not succeed in striking down the rebellion.

Therefore, in 4 A.D., Tiberius was reinstated as commander-in-chief over Germania after Emperor Augustus had reconciled himself with him and officially adopted him. Showing prudence and persistence, Tiberius defeated the Cheruscans in 5 A.D. and the Chaucians in 6 A.D.

These uprisings had remained regionally confined - no other tribes had dared to join the rebels. Roman rule seemed to be generally secure, and now, after the last resistance had been broken, Germania could be declared a province of the Roman Empire. Its center probably was what later became the City of Cologne; or perhaps the administrative and trading city which was recently discovered close to Waldgirmes near the river Lahn.

After the soldiers came the officials: A Roman governor had a staff of approximately 1000 men - 200 officials, countless assistants, and a mounted guard of 500 men. This province administration was supposed to raise taxes and draft men as soldiers, depending on whether a tribe was subdued or an ally, or liable to military service, or exempt from dues. (E.g. the Frisians had to supply 'taxes' in form of cattle skins; the Batavians only had to serve in Roman auxiliary troops.) Meanwhile, the officials also tried to guide the Barbarians towards local self-administration, and to train native assistant workers.

The legions were staying, of course. Still about 50,000 soldiers were based at the new province, and now they even spent the winter months there.

Only the Germanic Marcomanians could have become dangerous for the Romans: Some years earlier (9 B.C.) they had fled from the army of Drusus, and now they were residing on the other side of the Elbe and Danube rivers, as neighbors of the Roman-controlled Germania. Their king Marbod had set up an enormous army of allegedly 70,000 men and had subdued several neighboring tribes. He kept peace with the Romans, but to them his kingdom appeared as a continuous threat. Therefore, in 6 A.D., Rome set out up to 100,000 legionaries in order to conquer and break up Maroboduus's empire. But the attack had to be aborted.

The reason was that the peoples of today's South Hungary and Yugoslavia rose against the Roman rule: Up to 200,000 enemies of the Romans were under arms - an enormous danger even for Italy and the capital Rome itself. Augustus ordered a hasty peace with Maroboduus and sent all available legions into the rebellious provinces, where it took several years to strike down the rebellion.

Despite the favorable opportunity for a rebellion on their own, the weakened Germanic tribes kept quiet. The Roman rule between the Rhine and Elbe continued to exist undisturbed. Also the neighboring Marcomanian kingdom of Maroboduus continued to keep peace. Germania really seemed on its way to develop into a peaceful Roman province such as Gaul.

Types of Germanic Tribes to name just a few PART 3

The Franks, as they are known today, were a Germanic tribe who eventually became the French. They came to inhabit the former wealthy Roman provinces of Gaul and became the most powerful of the Germanic tribes. It was the Franks who created the strongest and most stable barbarian kingdom in the days after the Western Roman Empire had collapsed.

The Ostrogoths are the eastern division of the Goths that had split into western and eastern kingdoms. The Ostrogoth King Ermanarich created a huge kingdom that was attacked and soon overrun by the Huns from central Asia in about 370. They were then put into the army of the victors, and the Ostrogoths did not regain their freedom until 453, with the death of Attila. Until this time they had settled in Pannonia. From there they migrated into Italy.

When they went into Italy they wanted to adopt Roman culture and to be accepted and equals with the Romans. They helped protect the civilized world against other barbarians. Although the Ostrogoths were a barbarian people, they fought against them. The Ostrogoths became Arian Christians, which caused conflict between them and orthodox Roman Catholics.

The most important Ostrogoth leader was Theodoric the Great, who reigned from AD 493 to 526. In 488 the Ostrogoths were commissioned by the Emperor Zeno to attack Odoacer, a German usuper, in Italy. Odoacer surrendered in 493 on the condition that he was allowed to retain his half of the kingdom but he was killed by Theodoric, who then became sole ruler of Italy. Under Theodoric the old Roman law, taxation, and administrative systems were continued unbroken. There was also a great deal of peace and prosperity. He attempted to secure good diplomatic relations with his German neighbors by offering his daughters and sons to their kings in marriage.

After Theodoric's reign, the Ostrogothic kingdom continued to exist until the middle of the sixth century, when it was overthrown by Emperor Justinian. Eighteen years of hard fighting and devastation of the countryside were needed before the last Ostrogothic army was destroyed. Then the Ostrogothic state and people disappeared from history.

Civilization Past & Present Volume I, Sixth Edition. (F. S. Crofts Company, New York. 1993).

Lerner, Robert E., Western Civilization Volume I, Ninth Edition. (N. W. Norton Company, Inc. 1941).

The Visigoths, also known as the Goths, were a barbaric tribe. Living on the delta of the Danube River, their kingdom was inherited by Alaric I. They were pushed west by attacks from the Huns.

In 382, Theodosius, Roman ruler at the time, under a treaty made the Visigoths the first independent barbarian nation within the Roman Empire. Visigoths allied with Rome in 394, and Alaric I led the Visigoths in the Roman army against the Huns. Theodosius, before his death, spilt the empire between his sons Honorius and Acradius. The empire was now permanently split into eastern and western empires. In 395, when Theodosius died, the Visigoths relinquished their allegiance with Rome.

In 401, Alaric decided to invade Italy, but was defeated by the Roman general Flavius Stilicho, and the Visigoths were forced to withdraw from Italy. Alaric's huge loss did not prevent him from attacking again, as he did. The second invasion also ended in defeat, but this time Alaric constrained the Senate at Rome to pay a large endowment to the Visigoths. An anti-barbarian party took over Rome after Stilicho's death and ordered that wives and children of the tribesmen who served in the Roman army be killed. The tribal soldiers then returned to serve under Alaric, increasing his military strength. Even though Alaric was eager for peace, the western emperor Honorius, refused to recognize Alaric's needs for supplies and land. This led Alaric to attack Rome once more and the Senate ended up paying an endowment to Alaric and granted Alaric the right to go and negotiate with Honorius. Honorius, close-minded, paid no attention to what Alaric wanted and refused to set up a meeting for the negotiations to take place. In 409, Alaric surrounded Rome. Honorius lifted his blockade and appointed Attalus as western emperor. Alaric soon deposed Attalus and besieged Rome for the third time. Allies that were in the city opened the gates for Alaric and for three days his troops occupied Rome. While in Rome Alaric and his troops took everything with them and burned things that were in their way. Soon after this Alaric died and the Visigoths moved northward towards Spain. After Alaric's death the Visigoths roamed and were vulnerable to attacks.

Bury, J. B. History of the Later Roman Empire: From the Death of Theodosius to the Death of Justinian (Dover Publications, Inc., 1958).

Duggan, Christopher, A Concise History of Italy (Cambridge University Press., 1994).

Grant, Michael, The Fall of the Roman Empire (Macmillan Publishing Company,1914).

Randers-Pherson, Justine Davis, Barbarians and Romans (Justine Davis Randers-Pherson Publishing, 1983).

The Burgundians, East German tribesmen, were great allies of Rome. In the Battle of Chalons (451 AD), they fought on the side of Aetius, a Roman war hero, the Visigoths, and other Germanic peoples against Attila and the Huns. So much the Roman allies, the Burgundian kings were given the title of Master of the Soldiers. Burgundians sought their place in history through military alliances. The rise of the Franks under Clovis committed the Burgundians as allies to the Franks in which they helped Clovis to defeat the Visigoths in 507 AD

It was twice that the Burgundians faced destruction, the second time being fatal. The Huns attacked in 456 AD; with the aid of Aetus, the Burgundians narrowly escaped destruction. The few survivors fled to the territory surrounding Lake Geneva in Switzerland. Later, after repeated invasions, they moved to the valley of the Rhine River where they occupied eastern Gaul. Lyon became the capital of the Burgundian Kingdom. They gave their name to the region that still remains today as the region Burgundy. But later in 554 AD, the Burgundians were attacked by the Franks, their former allies, and their kingdom was annexed.

The greatest of the Burgundian kings was Gundobad, who reigned from 473 to 517 AD, his greatest contribution being Burgundian law. In 484, he formulated a law code for his Burgundian subjects, the Lex Gundobada, or Lex Burgundionum. Years later, he sponsored a more significant law code, the Lex Romana Burgundinum, this time benefit of his Roman subjects, "[w]hich applied also to cases in which both Romans and Burgundians were involved," (Jones, p.22). Finally, the Burgundians, like many other Germanic tribesmen, were Arian Christians. However, in 493 AD, Clotilda, the Burgundian princess, married Clovis, and having embraced the Roman Rite herself, helped convert Clovis to Roman Christianity.

England, L.A.J., France and Burgundy in the Fifteenth Century. (London: The Hambledon Press, 1983).

Calmette, Joseph. The Golden Age of Burgundy: The Magnificent Dukes and Their Courts. (France: Aes Grands Dues de Bourgogne, 1949).

Cartellier, Otto. The Court of Burgundy. (New York: Barnes and Noble, 1929).

Drew, Katherine Fischer. The Burgundian Code: Book of Constitutions or Laws of Gundobad, Additional Enactments. (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1949).

The period between 406 and 572 saw the Germanic barbarians complete their migrations into the West. It is undoubtedly one of history's most hectic and confusing periods of time. As the Roman world collapsed, many tribes reached a peak of brief glory, others were destroyed in a series of little-known wars. To the Germanic people, this was considered to be the “heroic age” which was a time of adventure and great displays of power.

The Vandals were a Germanic tribe of Jutland (now in Denmark), who migrated to the valley of the Odra (Oder) River about the 5th century BC. During the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD they settled along the Danube River. This is approximately when they began their conquests over Rome. Today's usage of the word "vandal" reflects the dread and hostility the tribe precipitated in other people, especially the Romans, by their looting and pillaging of the many villages they conquered.

In the 420s, much of Spain was the playground of the ferocious Vandal tribes, who had arrived there in 409 after crossing the Rhine in 406. The Vandals, under pressure from the local Romans and the expanding Visigoths, decided to move on to the rich provinces of Roman North Africa; they elected as their king a crippled son of a slave, Gaiseric. This proud, ruthless king was a gifted conspirator and a genius of political maneuver. For 50 years, Gaiseric’s web of entangling treaties foiled the plans of Roman diplomats and Germanic kings, always to the Vandals’ advantage.

In 429, Gaiseric ferried all of his people across the Strait of Gibraltar and led them east along the African coast. One by one, the gleaming Roman cities with their abundant granaries fell to the hungry Vandals. The people of Hippo were rallied to the defense of their town by their bishop, Augustine. St. Augustine died in his city during the 14-month-long Vandal siege. In the end, Hippo, too, passed into the barbarian hands. The Vandal conquest of North Africa took a decade to complete. Cleaning up operations were still going on when Gaiseric turned restlessly to a new project: he built a swift fleet and launched himself on a lucrative career of piracy in the Mediterranean Sea.

The Vandals carved out big estates and made their homes among the Romans. They left administrative chores to Roman bureaucrats. But the relations of the Arian Vandals with the Catholic inhabitants were never better than strained. Gaiseric barely managed to hold animosities in check, and under his successors prejudice erupted into violence. The Vandals persecuted the Roman majority. They martyred scores of Catholic and provided medieval hagiographers with many grim tales for their lives of the saints.

Gratuitous cruelty was only one symptom of the Vandals’ swift degeneration after Gaiseric’s reign. The warriors, seduced by the luxuries that their rich land supplied, grew weak, corrupt, and disorganized. They succumbed quickly when their kingdom was invaded by an army from the Eastern Roman Empire in 533. Soon afterward, the Vandals disappeared as a distinct people. They melted in with the highly mixed local population and tried to continue to live non-distinct lives. They left little behind but lingering bitterness, anger, and a new desire for justice.

The Lombards, or Langobards, were a Germanic tribe that began in southern Sweden and worked their way down into Italy. They became Italians in the process and gave their name to the northern Italian region of Lombardia. This movement from Sweden to Italy was gradual: it took four centuries.

When the Lombards --whose original name, Langobards, refers to their long beards-- descended on Italy in the 6th century, they had to deal with several earlier waves of German invaders (particularly the Goths) as well as the resurgent Eastern Romans (who were a power in Italy into the 8th century). However, twenty years after the last of the Eastern Romans were expelled from Italy (751 AD.), the Lombards were stomped by the better organized Franks. This was, technically, the end of the Lombard kingdom in Italy. But unlike earlier Germans, they had not maintained the ancient Roman forms of government during their domination of the Peninsula, nor did the Lombard duchies which survived the Frankish onslaught in the South. The political landscape in Italy was given a German overlay by the Lombards, where eventually they spoke Italian and became Catholic. Basically, Italy became another Germanic area.

Perhaps most importantly, the Lombards got involved in political arguments with the Pope, and this was what caused the papacy to call upon the Franks for aid. The papacy was a prize every Medieval magnate wanted to possess. But the popes knew that they could not survive long if they were the creators of one king or emperor. The Moslems had conveniently removed the authority of the Eastern Roman emperor from Italy (with a little help from the Lombards), but someone was needed to keep the Germans in Italy (and elsewhere) from controlling the papacy. For several centuries the protector of the papacy became the Franks (and later the French). Out of all of this came a papacy that became an arbiter of Medieval Politics. While the papacy controlled extensive lands in central Italy, the pope was never temporal power. The papacy created a balance of power between the various German kings that provided the Church an independence it would have never had if there were an effective Roman, or Holy Roman, emperor.

http://www.allempires.com/empires/romebrit/romebrit.htm -- Caesar and Britain...Part 1

http://www.teudogar.com/lex040.htm --- The Roman Rule over Germania....Part 2

http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/WestEurope/GermanicTribes.html -- Germanic Tribes to name just a few.....Part 3
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Yet another source for SRI to read about the germanic people

Postby DawnC71 » Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:54 pm

....and how they were pretty much both conquered and conquerers just like the Romans and just like virutally every other society in the world....whether ancient or modern:if lanky dares to learn something for once that is.

Julius Caesar initiated the first contact with the German people. He was the first person to take an interest in Germany. This contact came during the Gallic Wars in 58 BC when he put an end to the power of the German tribes in Alsace. In 55 BC he crossed the Rhine to persuade the Germans not to interfere with the war in Gaul. He crossed the Rhine a final time in 55 BC to relieve himself of the pressure from the rebelling Gauls. Other than these few contacts with Caesar the Romans left the Germans pretty much in peace.

The invasions of Germany came later and under a new leadership. Augustus remained in Gaul until 13 BCwhen Drusus the Elder took control of the province. In 12 BC Drusus crossed the Rhine to establish his presence around Germany. The next year he pushed farther into Germany, and by 9 BC had conquered many of the German tribes. Drusus died later that year and was replaced by his brother Tiberius who fought a number of smaller wars and eventually left Germany in the hands of legates who had made friendly relations with many of the native tribes.

Augustus, satisfied with the accomplishments of both Drusus and Tiberius, pushed to make Germany a province of the Roman Empire. The Romans had over estimated their position in Germany and found the tribes unwilling to accept the offer of provincial status. The command then fell upon Varus who was caught in a surprise attack while marching through the Teutoburg Forest and was defeated with great loses. The Rhine now once again served as the frontier of the Roman Empire. After this defeat the Romans practiced frontier defense along the Rhine with ten new legions.

In AD 69 a revolt broke out involving many of the tribes. The Romans saw this as their opportunity. Vespasian and the Flavians gained control in 70 and punished the tribes for their actions. The Flavians strengthened the already existing forts and defensive lines.

One reason for Rome conquering Germany was to extend the frontier farther to the east. Another reason was to create a line of defense that the Romans could use to protect their other provinces such as Gaul.

Germany was Romanized in varying degrees. The key to Romanization was to get the German nobility on the side of the Romans by giving them grants of citizenship and absorb them into the ranks of the equites. Rome assumed the role of organizing the tribes into a Roman style of life, this left only a small mark on German civilization. Rome did succeed in spreading their language to the Roman people with mixed reactions. Roman rule was accepted with mixed emotions. During the early years when they were first invaded by the Romans the German people were very reluctant to accept Roman rule and to become a province of the Roman Empire. This attitude changed in Lower Germany where many locals lived side by side with new settlers in relative peace and accepted the new culture.

Roman rule was based on the rule of the army. Germany had to have continuous military force because of the unwillingness of Germans to accept Roman rule and become a province of the Roman Empire. Germany was in essence an imperial province with constant military rule.

Both Germans and Romans gained advantages by being in the Empire. Rome first of all had much to gain. They had extension of their territory by gaining control of Germany. Second, they gained military advantage. They now had territory north if the Rhine and they could now defend Gaul and many of their other provinces. The Germans also had much to gain from the Romans. First, they helped the Germans to establish colonies and to organize themselves in communities. The Romans also introduced the Germans to fortified cities and towns, and also to the concept of building fortifications. The Germans stayed in these colonies, which were towns and cities. The main cities that the Romans founded with the Germanic tribes were Cologne, which was the capital of Germania Inferior. Another city that became a major city was Mainz which was the capital of Germania Superior. The third major city that developed during Germany’s provincial time was Trier.

By the fifth century Germany had turned into utter chaos. The Romans had lost most of their control over the territory that they once controlled. In AD 455 the Romans still controlled Germany, but later that year the Franks attacked and a conflict arose. By AD 457 Germany was occupied by a number of groups with both Roman and Frankish authority trying to prevail amongst all the strife. The last Roman soldiers entered into the Frankish army but still managed to keep their Roman identity. During this strife the Romans and the Franks seemed to coexist with each other. The Franks went so far as to elect Romans to serve as their kings. Sources have also shown that the Romans and the Germans allied together to fight the Goths and the Saxons. There are no specific incidents that suggest how Germany passed out of Roman hands, but the evidence seems to suggest that the Romans eventually merged with the many other groups that were occupying Germany at that time. This eventually led to the loss of identity by the Romans and this led to Germany being free of the Empire.

Bowan, Alan K., Edward Champlin, and Andrew Lintott, eds. The Cambridge Ancient History. New York: Cambridge University Press, 1996. (PALS)

This book is an encyclopedia of Ancient history. It has a section that gives the events that took place during Rome’s rule of Germania.

Bunson, Matthew. Encyclopedia of the Roman Empire. New York: Facts on File, 1992.(PALS)

This is a general overview of the history of German throughout the Roman Empire. It describes the culture that developed from Roman influence.

Dopsch, Alfons. The Economic and Social Foundations of European Civilization. New York: Harcourt, Brace and Company, 1937. (PALS)

This book is about how Germany developed both economically as well as socially and culturally.

Kingsley, Charles. The Roman and the Teuton. London: Macmillian and Company, 1884. (PALS)

This gives a general history of the German people and how they developed under Roman influence.

Owen, Francis. The Germanic People. New York: Bookman Associates, 1960. (PALS)

This book is about the history of German people and includes information of ancient Germany.

Richard, Ernst. History of German Civilization. New York: The Macmillian Company, 1911. (PALS)

Included in this book are the first contact that the Germans had with the Romans and how they influenced their civilization.

Tacitus, Cornelius. Dialogus Agricola Germania. New York: G.P. Putnam’s Sons, 1914. (PALS)

Tacitus writes a brief but concise history of the Germanic people.

Todd, Malcolm. The Northern Barbarians, 100 B.C.-A.D. 300. New York: Basil Blackwell, 1987. (PALS)

This book talks about the Roman influence and how the Barbarians fit in with this Roman influence.

Wacher, John. The Roman World. New York: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1987. (PALS)

This book is about the Roman society. It has information about Germany while it was under the rule of the Roman Empire.

Whittaker, C. R. Frontiers of the Roman Empire. Baltimore: The John Hopkins University Press, 1994. (PALS)

This book gives the history of the colonies that eventually became the frontier of the Roman Empire. Germany falls under this category, this gives the history and the events that took place.

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Postby Lunatock » Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:31 pm

DawnC71 wrote:But then again the Celts wiped out the Picts which were the true indigenous people of Scotland...so I guess we all have been conquered or Conquerors at some point in our evolutionary history right?

History sucks if you think about it too much.

Well considering the picts were the same bunch those Vikings and one Arab lead the fight against in the movie The Thirteenth Warrior, and the book Eaters Of The Dead..based on actual records. Then it could of been done out of neccessity, and not just to expand an empire.
So I'll meet up with that Russian, that Brazillian, the rest of the team from Brooklyn..and we'll start shooting.
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Postby Sri Lanky » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:55 pm

I stand corrected but ultimately the Germanic tribes destroyed the Roman Empire once they got fed up.

Did anyone conquer the Vikings?
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Postby DawnC71 » Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:26 am

Well considering the picts were the same bunch those Vikings and one Arab lead the fight against in the movie The Thirteenth Warrior, and the book Eaters Of The Dead..based on actual records. Then it could of been done out of neccessity, and not just to expand an empire.

well the Picts were not exactly destroyed...they were sort of just taken in by the Gaelic Celts, and then they intermarried and intermingled or whatever and came up with the modern day Scotsman...most clans will trace their lineage back to the Picts as well as the Gaelic Celts ...me I embrace the Celtic culture more because there really is not much left of the Picts history...i probably actually have about one red blood cells worth of Pict blood in me anyways...So, it is more interesting for me to read about the Gaelic Celts.

As for that movie the Thirteenth Warrior or the Book Eaters of the Dead, I have no knowledge of either so I cannot comment too much on whether they are historically accurate...probably could not comment on it even if I had seen it since there is so little actual "fact" known about the Picts. The did some grand circular stone art carvings which the Scots are trying to preserve but other than that there is not a whole lot other than legend to go on. Plus I dont think that conquering a relatively stone age level people which probably only numbered in the mid to maybe ten-thousand mark hardly is evidence that the Celts "conquered" them in order to build a empire...especially since the Romans and, eventually the Germanic tribes after they got their act together, conquered the British Isles anyways...and on and on and on and on.....

But I will check out those sources...should be good for entertainment if nothing else!
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Postby el3so » Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:34 am

el3so wrote:http://www.hetkwaad.nl

It's an exhibition in A'dams royal tropical institute about evil all over the world and through the centuries. Demons, Satan, etc but also Darth Vader are featured. Lasts till 12th of september.

Just realised that this exhibition is in the very same street where movie director Van Gogh recently got shot and stabbed to death.

A freak coincidence or part of a broad Muslim conspiracy?
hmm, probably not... though that might just be what they'd want you to believe
(insert 'Twilight Zone' or 'Halloween' score)
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Postby Kurt » Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:56 pm

Sri Lanky wrote:Did anyone conquer the Germanic tribes?

All and all I think the Germanic tribes did pretty well..a Conquer here and there and a Military defeat here and there, But if you look at Population , territory and language..they did pretty good as a people. They started out in Southern Scandinavia and were surrounded by Celts and Finns and they managed to kick the Celts out of nearly everyplace they found them, along with the Slavs drove the Finns to..uh...Finnland (Finns used to be the most widespread people in Europe), conquered England, Set up the area that would become the modern Russian state and now have a Language that is the Lingua Franca of the world.

But in my Opinion the biggest gainers of the world were the Slavs. Until about 530AD they just lived in the Pripet Marshes of Belorussia and now they are everywhere. (some credit must be given to the political structure of the Turkic nomads who conquered them, but were assimilated by them as well.)
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