"We will not have an all-volunteer army" Bush, Oct

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Postby SoloPilot » Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:28 pm

Hmmmm . . .I don't see ANYWHERE that I said that it was "routine."

What I DID say, for the concept-impaired, is that, "at some point," disobedience to tax law will escalate to the use of deadly force.

Oh, sure, they will try to beat you with clubs first, but what if you don't let them beat you with clubs?

Answer the question -- if you DON'T LET THEM TAKE YOU, do you think that they will just give up and go home? Do you think that they will decide that, since they would have to bring guns next time, they won't come back?

Make up your mind. Either AT SOME POINT they would come back with guns, or they would go home and never bother you again.

"Government" (as a verb) is the coercion of people through the threat of force. MOST people don't let things get to the point of force, but that is always reserved to the government -- especially in the UK, with the various laws prohibiting possession of weapons even for defense, and the use of any weapon (even improvised) in self defense.

No, Penta, they may not have guns the first time they come to your place, but unless YOU give up and go with them, they will have weapons the last time they come to your place.
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Postby Penta » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:22 pm

Jesus, you don't give up, do you? And you just don't get it.

If the police want to arrest me, they arrest me with pepper spray, batons and superior numbers, however much of a fight I might foolishly put up. How exactly would I stop them 'beating me with clubs'?

None of us would have guns. Guns would never come into the equation. Guns are out.

Not all societies are like yours: and, in this respect, fortunately, I would say.

"Government" (as a verb)

Eh? Government isn't and never could be a verb.
I government, you government, he, she, it governments, we government, you government, they government.
What nonsense you write.
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Postby Buzzsaw » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:30 pm

Not necessarily true...the language give us a little license to "wing it" on occasion.

anthimeria

an-thi-mer'-i-a from Gk. anti- “instead of” and mereia “a part”
antimereia

Substitution of one part of speech for another (such as a noun used as a verb).

Examples

I've been Republicaned all I care to be this election year.
Noun used as verb.

Did you see the way those blockers defenced on that last play?
Noun used as verb.

Feel bad? Strike up some music and have a good sing.
Verb used as noun.
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Postby SoloPilot » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:37 pm

I'm not Jesus, but I "get it" a lot more than you "get it."

I can't believe that you are so stupid as to not understand, so I have to assume that you are intentionally dodging the point.

If you were to succesfully defend yourself against the pepper spray, clubs and superior numbers (use your imagination, maybe LOCK THE DOORS, ha?), would they just go away or not?

ANSWER THE QUESTION. You are the one who said that your government wouldn't bring guns. So tell me, if you don't do what they want, what will they do?
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Postby SoloPilot » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:47 pm

From Dictionary.com [brackets mine]:

1. The act or process of governing, especially the control and administration of public policy in a political unit.

["act or process of" = action = verb]

2. The office, function, or authority of a governing individual or body.
3. Exercise of authority in a political unit; rule.

[Exercise = action = verb]

4. The agency or apparatus through which a governing individual or body functions and exercises authority.
5. A governing body or organization, as:
1. The ruling political party or coalition of political parties in a parliamentary system.
2. The cabinet in a parliamentary system.
3. The persons who make up a governing body.
6. A system or policy by which a political unit is governed.
7. Administration or management of an organization, business, or institution.

[management = action = verb]

8. Political science.
9. Grammar. The influence of a word over the morphological inflection of another word in a phrase or sentence.

govern·mental (-mntl) adj.
govern·mental·ly adv.

[adv = adverb = modification of a verb]
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Fruedian slip

Postby Q » Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:12 pm

Skiritai wrote:Here's the full quote, in context:

Campaigning in an area heavily dependent on the military, Bush said, "We will not have an all-volunteer army" before correcting himself. "Let me restate that," he continued. "We will not have a draft ... . The best way to avoid a draft is to vote for me."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041017/D85OSOP83.html

Stooping pretty low, Immigrant...


You know what they say....

Bush Co. has publicly confused Afghanistan with Iraq many, many times. Often the" truth" comes out as a "slip".

Think I'm some commie, hippie godless moron who's voting for Kerry? Think again.

Bush has no other option but a draft. Hack says it, I see the shortage in the military on a daily basis.

Recruiting numbers down. I personally know people that have been stopped lossed 5-6 times, Operation Blue to Green a failure. Yeah, no draft coming.
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Postby Dim » Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:52 pm

If you 'defend' yourself against the police and they respond with armed units then you're not being arrested for tax evasion, you're being arrested for assaulting an officer and resisting arrest.

I'm not sure where this taxation=facism argument is going - there are plenty of crimes that will lead to police intervention if you continue to commit them. Try walking around the local mall naked and defend yourself if anyone trys to stop you.

I think you're trying to make the point that all authority resides (ultimately) with the use of force, and this is true in a sophmoric kind of way; but most of us choose to live in a civilization and pay taxes because it's nicer than living in caves and spending all day hunting for berries, not because someone will kill you if you don't tow the line.
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Postby ROMAD_25 » Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:02 pm

From the source...........


http://www.sss.gov/WHHAP.HTM

SEQUENCE OF EVENTS

Here is a brief overview of what would occur if the United States returned to a draft:

1. CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT AUTHORIZE A DRAFT
A crisis occurs which requires more troops than the volunteer military can supply. Congress passes and the President signs legislation which starts a draft.

2. THE LOTTERY
A lottery based on birthdays determines the order in which registered men are called up by Selective Service. The first to be called, in a sequence determined by the lottery, will be men whose 20th birthday falls during that year, followed, if needed, by those aged 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25. 18-year-olds and those turning 19 would probably not be drafted.

3. ALL PARTS OF SELECTIVE SERVICE ARE ACTIVATED
The Agency activates and orders its State Directors and Reserve Forces Officers to report for duty. See also Agency Structure.

4. PHYSICAL, MENTAL, AND MORAL EVALUATION OF REGISTRANTS
Registrants with low lottery numbers are ordered to report for a physical, mental, and moral evaluation at a Military Entrance Processing Station to determine whether they are fit for military service. Once he is notified of the results of the evaluation, a registrant will be given 10 days to file a claim for exemption, postponement, or deferment. See also Classifications.

5. LOCAL AND APPEAL BOARDS ACTIVATED AND INDUCTION NOTICES SENT
Local and Appeal Boards will process registrant claims. Those who pass the military evaluation will receive induction orders. An inductee will have 10 days to report to a local Military Entrance Processing Station for induction.

6. FIRST DRAFTEES ARE INDUCTED
According to current plans, Selective Service must deliver the first inductees to the military within 193 days from the onset of a crisis.


Classifications
Men are not classified now. Classification is the process of determining who is available for military service and who is deferred or exempted. Classifications are based on each individual registrant's circumstances and beliefs. A classification program would go into effect when Congress and the President decide to resume a draft. Then, men who are qualified for induction would have the opportunity to file a claim for exemptions, deferments, and postponements from military service. Here is a list of some, though not all, classifications and what they mean:

1-A - available immediately for military service.
1-O Conscientious Objector- conscientiously opposed to both types (combatant and non-combatant) of military training and service - fulfills his service obligation as a civilian alternative service worker.
1-A-O Conscientious Objector - conscientiously opposed to training and military service requiring the use of arms - fulfills his service obligation in a noncombatant position within the military.
2-D Ministerial Students - deferred from military service.
3-A Hardship Deferment - deferred from military service because service would cause hardship upon his family.
4-C Alien or Dual National - sometimes exempt from military service.
4-D Ministers of Religion - exempted from military service.
Student Postponements - a college student may have his induction postponed until he finishes the current semester or, if a senior, the end of the academic year. A high school student may have his induction postponed until he graduates or until he reaches age 20. Appealing a Classification - A man may appeal his classification to a Selective Service Appeal Board.
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Postby Prodigal Son » Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:32 pm

During the 80s the military did "call up" wargames that simulated a national military mobilization. It wa a complete disaster -- they were using plans drawn up to fight WWII and transport schedules dating from the 50s. They supposedly learned a lot from the experience and passed legislation that would facilitate a general call up of draftees. They, for instance, started keeping lists of folks in "specialty" professions that would be critical in a time of war -- like doctors and whatnot.
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Postby Penta » Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:55 pm

Of course there are loads of examples of nouns used as verbs (and vice versa), but it would be completely absurd, not to mention redundant, to use the abstract noun (government) taken from a verb (to govern) as a new verb (to government), with the same meaning as the original verb.
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Re: Buzzsaw

Postby Skirita » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:09 pm

Penta wrote:Of course there are loads of examples of nouns used as verbs (and vice versa), but it would be completely absurd, not to mention redundant, to use the abstract noun (government) taken from a verb (to govern) as a new verb (to government), with the same meaning as the original verb.


The verb that corresponds to "government" is "to govern." The suffix, "-ment", serves the specific purpose of creating nouns with verbal roots, i.e. "to establish" + "-ment" = "establishment". You can't make a verb out of a word with a noun ending.
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Postby Penta » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:11 pm

I refuse to go any further with the guns issue, which has just become ridiculous.

On the question of government as verb, I suggest you learn a little elementary grammar. You tried to call an online dictionary in aid, and merely underlined your ignorance.
A hint: every single definition is presented as a noun (act, process, office, function, exercise, agency, apparatus, body, organisation, party, coalition ...) because government is a noun and they define nouns by noun phrases or clauses. (Just so you don't get too confused, I'll explain that exercise can be a noun or a verb; here it is used as a noun - exercise of authority; if it was being used as a verb it would be, for instance, to exercise authority.)
If you still don't understand, try looking up 'govern' in your dictionary. All the definitions will begin with verbs, possibly in the infinitive form, i.e. with 'to': To exercise authority, or some such.

You might find it easier not to doubt me on questions of grammar: I can batter you over the head with it like a club until you have to give in.
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Postby Bobby Sands » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:17 pm

Prodigal Son wrote:During the 80s the military did "call up" wargames that simulated a national military mobilization.... They, for instance, started keeping lists of folks in "specialty" professions that would be critical in a time of war -- like doctors and whatnot.


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/ ... and19.html

Tuesday, October 19, 2004

Selective Service updating plans to draft health care workers
Preparations still are 'on the shelf,' says agency

By ROBERT PEAR
THE NEW YORK TIMES

WASHINGTON -- The Selective Service has been updating its contingency plans for a draft of doctors, nurses and other health care workers in case of a national emergency that overwhelmed the military's medical corps.

In a confidential report this summer, a contractor hired by the agency described how such a draft might work, how to secure compliance and how to mold public opinion and communicate with health care professionals, whose lives could be disrupted.

On the one hand, the report said, the Selective Service System should establish contacts in advance with medical societies, hospitals, schools of medicine and nursing, managed care organizations, rural health care providers and the editors of medical journals and trade publications.

On the other hand, it said, such contacts must be limited, low key and discreet because "overtures from Selective Service to the medical community will be seen as precursors to a draft" and that could alarm the public.

In this election year, the report said, "very few ideas or activities are viewed without some degree of cynicism."

President Bush has declared that there will be no draft, but Sen. John Kerry has suggested that this is a possibility if Bush is re-elected.

Richard Flahavan, a spokesman for the Selective Service System, said yesterday: "We have been routinely updating the entire plan for a health care draft. The plan is on the shelf and will remain there unless Congress and the president decide that it's needed and direct us to carry it out."

The Selective Service does not decide whether a draft will occur. It would carry out the mechanics only if the president and Congress authorized a draft.

In 1987, Congress enacted a law requiring the Selective Service to develop a plan for "registration and classification" of health care professionals essential to the armed forces.

Under the plan, Flahavan said, about 3.4 million male and female health care workers ages 18 to 44 would be expected to register with the Selective Service. From this pool, he said, the agency could select tens of thousands of health care professionals practicing in 62 health care specialties.

"The Selective Service System plans on delivering about 36,000 health care specialists to the Defense Department if and when a special skills draft were activated," Flahavan said.

The contractor hired by Selective Service, Widmeyer Communications, said that local government operations would be affected by a call-up of emergency medical technicians, so it advised the Selective Service to contact groups such as the U.S. Conference of Mayors and the National Association of Counties.

Doctors and nurses would be eligible for deferments if they could show that they were providing essential health care services to civilians in their communities.

But the contractor said: "There is no getting around the fact that a medical draft would disrupt lives. Many familial, business and community responsibilities will be impacted.

"If medical professionals are singled out and other professionals are not called, many will find the process unfair," and health care workers will ask, "Why us?"

In a recent article in The Wisconsin Medical Journal, published by the state medical society, Col. Roger Lalich, a senior physician in the Army National Guard, said: "It appears that a general draft is not likely to occur. A physician draft is the most likely conscription into the military in the near future."

Since 2003, the Selective Service has said it is shifting its preparations for a draft in a national crisis toward narrow sectors of specialists, including medical personnel.
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Postby Skirita » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:19 pm

You might find it easier not to doubt me on questions of grammar: I can batter you over the head with it like a club until you have to give in.


<joke>I got your back, Penta</joke>
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Postby Penta » Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:33 pm

Well, thank you, kind sir. Much obliged, I'm sure.
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