Funny how much firepower some think they need here at home

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Re: Funny how much firepower some think they need here at ho

Postby Penta » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:14 pm

ktrout wrote:Well, maybe those laws just haven't done a damned bit of good, which I think is just as bad. Taking away freedoms without any real net benefit while costing taxpayer dollars in enforcement, lost opportunities (for those who break impotent laws), and the cost of the lost freedom itself doesn't make any sense to me.

And your evidence is? A 22% drop in 7 years in gun crime (pace Caliban, who hasn't yet come back with an explanation) seems pretty good to me. I don't see any great outcry here against lost freedom in that respect. I do hear plenty of Americans telling us we should be scandalised and angry. Perhaps you could try to get your head round the bizarre idea that the freedom to carry weapons isn't one that many people here consider of any importance at all. It simply isn't an issue for us.

Oh, and "that article" was just a data blog, where they collate the facts related to some current issue in the news, so people can see for themselves. How can data on gun crime in the US be propaganda when a gun crime (and a horrendous one at that) in the US is what we're talking about?
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Re: Funny how much firepower some think they need here at ho

Postby ktrout » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:08 pm

Because crime is crime.
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Re: Funny how much firepower some think they need here at ho

Postby Penta » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:22 pm

ktrout wrote:Because crime is crime.


You've lost me there.

But I'll guess, to save time: do you mean that all crimes are the same? That we shouldn't distinguish between different types of crime? If we were talking about, say, financial crimes - Enron, perhaps - then I'd agree that any newspaper that gave statistics on gun crimes on the back of it could be described as "propagandistic". But not the case here.

Or are you talking about crimes of violence, and they shouldn't separate them into, say, murders with guns and murders with knives, or blunt instruments, or whatever? Because in that case, of course I agree that murder's murder, however it's done. But it's certainly easier for a single individual to kill and wound a lot of people at a time with a weapon that can shoot off 30 rounds before reloading than with a knife or a baseball bat. Perhaps figures on mass killings would have been more helpful.
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Re: Funny how much firepower some think they need here at ho

Postby Woodsman » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:20 pm

Penta wrote:Wouldn't the gangster's and the nutter's freedom to own and carry weapons almost unimpeded severely restrict my individual choices? To walk pretty much where I like without fear?


Now why did you have to go and bring that up. ;-) I guess that is up to the individual - which opens a giant can of worms on the whole objectivity of what is violating others choices...BUT, I would say that I do not walk around in fear, nor do I fear much of anything in general - though I will say that personally as a former boyscout and one who has a career based on the importance of preparation, I like to be prepared to a reasonable extent.

I suspect the Jewish folks in Germany would have liked that option previous to WWII as well (as I suspect a small % of them were able to fight or flight due to have the sensibility of being prepared).

To feel safe in my own home? To know with near-certainty that my children were never going to be involved in a Columbine-type incident,


...An incident with an extremely rare occurrence and likely a similar probability to any society that is unarmed or where arms are extremely restricted?

and need never expect to have to go through metal detectors to get into school or university? That any playground bullying they faced would involve only punch-ups and nothing worse? That they were safe?


I stabbed a guy in the neck with a pencil when I was 8 y.o. - because he was strangling me - is that worse than a punch up? Outlaw pencils shall we?

Your (and other flaggers') descriptions of why they need to carry guns for self-defence make me think you must live your lives in fear of attack, even if not consciously all the time, at least sub-consciously. I don't. And I have no reason to. Who's more restricted? Who's more free? Whose quality of life is better?


I like to hunt with a pistol. This was the SOLE reason I acquired a concealed pistol permit - so I could hunt birds while I was cruising timber and still be within the letter of the law. I wouldn't have to do that in the free state of Vermont - or now, Arizona - but because it's my state, it's restricted. Wanna see something? Compare the per capita gun violence between VT and my state. Telling. So now the folks walking around with guns for bad purposes without a permit are outlaws. Idiocy in my mind. I asked some Swiss folk recently if they could do that. The answer: Why would you want to hunt with a pistol?

Telling.
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Re: Funny how much firepower some think they need here at ho

Postby Woodsman » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:46 pm

Penta wrote:I should add that I don't think you can put the genie back in the bottle in the US (which is one of the many things I've learned here). The right to own guns is too deeply ingrained in your culture. It isn't in ours, no idealisation of the wild west, no cowboys and Indians, no second amendment, so we have a good chance to stop it taking root. What I do think is that the criticism of our gun control laws, from an American perspective, is misguided. Which is what I was trying to get at.


Personally I think we should do away with individual restrictions of any kind internationally and let it play out.

Would the evil reign supreme or would good take over?

Liberating the individual would be extremely good if the individual was respectful toward others interests.

Liberating the individual would be extremely bad if the individual was a sheer conqueror.

respect involves compromise and compromise is what makes humans EXTREMELY successful in ANY system (regardless of the restrictions).

Those are my values because I believe that I am an inherently a good guy and I believe that I am respective of others and can compromise, which is based on a combo of differing values.

Thing is, right now we have a system internationally where a varied level of restrictions are placed on the individual not due to any rational or logical thought of the human condition - but rather to the FEAR based on the BELIEF that humans are inherently evil bastards.

I do not for one minute believe that is true. If it were true, our species would not exist (of course - the jury is still out on this thanks to questionable "scientific" work currently going on).

That is pretty much all I got.
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Re: Funny how much firepower some think they need here at ho

Postby Penta » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:51 pm

I do think freedom from fear is an important one. Of course, you might say if I was armed I would be less fearful, and that's why some people want to have the right to be armed. But if I thought I needed to be armed it would just demonstrate that I was afraid. And as it is, I'm not. I've been burgled in the night when I was in bed (Mr P was away), and it never occurred to me for a moment that the toerags might have been carrying any sort of weapon (your ordinary burglar doesn't because the penalties if they get caught are so much higher). So I could come roaring down the stairs and yell at them to get the fuck out of my house - which they did, in very short order - and then chase them out into the back garden. If I expected them to be armed, I don't suppose I would have the nerve.

Woodsman wrote:
a Columbine-type incident,

...An incident with an extremely rare occurrence and likely a similar probability to any society that is unarmed or where arms are extremely restricted?

And yet I've seen plenty of calls for students be allowed to carry guns on campus. If it's so rare, then why the need even to consider that? Seems like a recipe for yet more mayhem to me.

If I was an ordinary politician, I would need to be able to say what I thought without fear of intimidation, whether threats of violence (and I can't imagine making those myself against political opponents), or actual violence, and I would be horrified at the prospect of needing personal protection. That's the guarantee of freedom of speech that I think is crucial. (I think it's fair enough that ministers in very sensitive posts get protection, but I'd hate to have to have it.) Imagine my having flipflop, or someone like him, with me day after day. It doesn't bear thinking about. ;)

Pencils - yup, that's a hard one.


On your last: actually, I think fear is used more by the people who want restrictions removed (the NRA, etc.) than by people who are in favour of controls.
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Re: Funny how much firepower some think they need here at ho

Postby Woodsman » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:37 am

Penta wrote:On your last: actually, I think fear is used more by the people who want restrictions removed (the NRA, etc.) than by people who are in favour of controls.


Fear is used as a tool of power and financial gain, no matter the intent.
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Re: Funny how much firepower some think they need here at ho

Postby vetparatrooper » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:45 am

Tru dat about fear Woods..

Hey I stabbed myself in the hand with a pencil when I was about 10 yrs old...Hurt like hell.

Another kid in class was sitting at the library across from me and he had his pencil facing vertically with the point up and for some reason I slammed my hand down right on the point...absolutely no reason other than maybe on a subconscious level, perhaps I wanted to try to get him in trouble by maybe saying he might have tried to stab me but I never said it...Just screamed.....What an idiot I was at that age.
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Re: Funny how much firepower some think they need here at ho

Postby JamesInTheWorld » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:51 am

I avoid gun stores at all costs because of the comic book nerds that hang out in them


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Re: Funny how much firepower some think they need here at ho

Postby lsheldon » Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:13 am

JamesInTheWorld wrote:I avoid gun stores at all costs because of the comic book nerds that hang out in them


~JITW


Or the comic book nerds that WORK in them.
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Re: Funny how much firepower some think they need here at ho

Postby Woodsman » Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:50 am

I have seen both - boring.

The last gun I bought I purchased from a retired trooper who lives about 10 minutes from my boonies place (that makes him a neighbor) who has a FFL. The price was about 15-20% cheaper than a store - and that doesn't include the gas money it costs just to get to it from here.
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