Supreme Court Debates Juvenile Executions

by **Texas Carnie Roadshow** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:00 am

It may depend on the whole "tried as an adult" thing, which may be dependant upon the accused party's stage of mental development, the severity of the crime, and maybe a few other factors.
I may be wrong though.

by **kilroy** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:27 am

It may depend on the whole "tried as an adult" thing, which may be dependant upon the accused party's stage of mental development, the severity of the crime, and maybe a few other factors.
I may be wrong though.

yeah, tcr brings up a good point. most of you don't seem to notice this, but the reason there isn't a standard set age for the death penalty is that it allows discretion within the justice system based on all the circumsances of the individual case, allowing the system to judge on an individual basis. not all 15 year olds who murder people are executed (just look at lee malvo), only those who commit capital crimes, go through hearings about whether or not the defendant is fit to be tried as an adult, and are convicted after a rigorous trial are even eligible for the death penalty, after which sentencing has to be agreed upon. that is why there is no need to answer prodigal's question about whether or not it's right to execute 10 year olds if it's okay to execute 15 year olds. no blanket standard exists now depending solely on age, it depends on the circumstances surrounding the case and the individual on trial. also, i believe that mentally handicapped people are subject to the same process of hearings on their mental ability to recognize the nature of their crimes already. nobody here is advocating the execution of all juvinile or retarded people who are convicted of capital crimes, only the ones who have been found to be able to understand the consequences of their actions.

and if life in prison without parole is the worst punishment availible, it's a blank check for someone with that sentence to commit as much violent crime within the prison system as they want, including assault, rape, and murder.

by **patriot** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:18 am

Nice work patriot - John Wayne Gacy grew up with an abusive alcoholic father and suffered a serious head injury as a teenager which caused a blood clot to form in his brain - subsequent to this he experienced frequent blackouts and hullucinations.

I'd be curious to find out the name of the 'Chicago area psychoanalyst' that considered this a normal life.

Sorry, I was misleading when I said "all" had relatively normal lives. Most had relatively normal lives (I was paraphrasing an interview from long ago; forgive my forgetfullness).

But! She still said that fire-lighting and bed-wetting weren't indicitve of a serial killer (which is what we are debating).

Her name is Dr. Helen Morrison, a forensic psychologist who has analysed serial killers for over twenty some years.

I'll try to find the interview for you, but as for now heres another one you might enjoy...

http://town.hall.org/radio/Soundprint/0 ... _01_ITH.au

by **patriot** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:49 am

http://www.wgnradio.com/steve/audio/

There ya go, that's the one. Just scroll down to...

Helen Morrison, an expert on serial killers.

She discredits the bed-wetting/fire-lighting myth.

by **ROB** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:50 am

Nobody has really addressed the fact that the court system sometimes gets it wrong. Not everybody found guilty is in fact guilty. There are many examples of innocents being let out of jail and even death row.

Therefore aren't the rights of one innocent (albeit unlucky) person more important than society's desire to put others to death? That unlucky person could be you.

If you think society's desire for vengeance is more important than the right to life of an innocent person, then are you happy to be the next innocent person?

by **patriot** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:23 am

Nobody has really addressed the fact that the court system sometimes gets it wrong.

Actually I did, twice. They have yet to answer my question...

Is the reduction in recidivism worth the lives of a few innocent people or do you consider them collaterol damage in the fight against crime? I doubt they will answer or adress my question because they know it's a barbaric practice, and they know it's wrong.

by **ROB** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:06 pm

Are there any actual statistics to show that capital punishment deters crime?

by **patriot** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:11 pm

Are there any actual statistics to show that capital punishment deters crime?

I think what Buzz meant by the ceasing of recidivism was that since they're dead they wouldn't have any chance to recidivate.

As for capital punishment detering crime you need only look at one statisitic...

If capital punishment deterred crime America would be the safest country in the world...

by **RatherNotSay** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:21 pm

I doubt very much Christ would demand the execution of a retarded person

Christ would not demand the execution of anybody.

by **Tarkan** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:31 pm

Prodigal Son wrote:And Tarkan...you never answered my question. If a 10-year-old kills somebody intentionally, should they be put to death? What makes a 10-year-old's conception of right and wrong any different than a 15-year-old? A 20-year-old? Shouldn't an 8-year-old know killing somebody is wrong? Shouldn't the death penalty be applied to them? Afterall, they know better do they not?

It really depends Prodigal. Like, if you take the two 11 year olds in Britain that lured the 4 year old away from the mall then bashed his head in with a rock, I have to wonder how you think society benefits from them being released at 18, which they will be. And if they are never released, how society benefits from permanently locking up two horrible victimizers in a juvenile institution where they will undoubtedly victimize other juveniles who haven't committed murder and are rehabilitatable, and then graduating to adult prison where they will get to do the same. Some people, children even, really do deserve to die for their actions.

Capital murder typically depends on "special circumstances", especially when applied to murder and capital charges against minors. Those special circumstances are typically extreme depravity. Rape + murder, torture + murder and the like. And yes, if a 10 year old does it, pull the switch. They will never be a functioning member of society.

by **kilroy** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:37 pm

Nobody has really addressed the fact that the court system sometimes gets it wrong. Not everybody found guilty is in fact guilty. There are many examples of innocents being let out of jail and even death row.

Therefore aren't the rights of one innocent (albeit unlucky) person more important than society's desire to put others to death? That unlucky person could be you.

If you think society's desire for vengeance is more important than the right to life of an innocent person, then are you happy to be the next innocent person?

i would say that this is a very good reason to make execution more rare, reserved for the ultimate punishment, but i stand by my position that there are certain people who deserve death, and that life imprisonment still allows for abuses by those who have already been sentenced to that maximum.

If capital punishment deterred crime America would be the safest country in the world...

i really doubt that the american gov't executes more people per capita than any other gov't in the world. if you could come up with some stats maybe...

by **Dim** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:47 pm

According to NationMaster the US ranks at number twenty for executions/capita. Number one is the Bahamas! Who knew?

In terms of total executions the US is third behind China (which is WAY ahead) and Congo, with Iran hot on Americas heels.

Take a look at the other countries which practise capital punishment. America isn't in very good company . . .

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_exe_cap

by **Renard** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:57 pm

The Bahamas has just to execute one person a year to maintain the number one spot.

They were also considered the most successful nation at the Sydney Olympics based on per capita calculations.

by **kilroy** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:00 pm

hey, bahamans are great company!

according to the list, only 37 countries executed anyone, so the US is more than halfway down the list. the usa is 20 and japan, whom i doubt anyone would argue is a barbaric regime is 25. i would also note that the countries ahead of the usa are waaay the fuck ahead. including those goddamn (argh) prc muthafuckas.

by **ROB** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:32 pm

kilroy wrote:the usa is 20 and japan, whom i doubt anyone would argue is a barbaric regime is 25.

Reckon I could put up a pretty decent argument.

Anyway - Glad to see Tarkan and Kiroy avoided my question too.

Supreme Court Debates Juvenile Executions

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