Hopefully I am not going to show my lack of knowledge too much but.....
Is that the same group they talk about in National Treasure?
Knights Templar?
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by coldharvest » Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:53 am
Both sides of our family go that far back.
I know the law. And I have spent my entire life in its flagrant disregard.
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coldharvest - Abdul Rahman
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by zahra » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:57 pm
Pam, Knights Templar is the group that Da Vinci Code talks about. The group who had sworn to protect the secret about Jesus and Marry Magdelene, this is what Dan brown says in the book, don't know how much of this theory is true.
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by yorick » Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:43 am
Zahra you sound like smart cookie readin up on mystical stuff - sneakin through mysteries from thousands of years ago - and hey, movies first occur at sacred time in divine space before the screentest dont they?
Do books say anything about 1961 kabbalist numerology that means the same thing upside down vertical/horizontal yet mirrored by 1691 - when TK's are said to have given up the ghost?
Meanwhile, family of mine earned honorable mention when New Testament Holy Bible was written...... am wondering if this counts on this thread for somethin, even a pair of movie tickets, here in the TinHatCafe for searching insights which make thoughts worth thinkin.
Here's what my great, greeaat, greeeaaat, greeeaaaat Grandpappy used to say: "who gains the whole world returns for the soul."
These words he hollered outloud when the usual gang of scholars, RS & FRC et al. were scratching their heads over a decent punchline/slogan to fit Matthew 16:26 which posed the riddle but left the question unanswered.
C'mon crew gotta git in gear and reconnoitre stuff of KT import/export value here.
(:=
Do books say anything about 1961 kabbalist numerology that means the same thing upside down vertical/horizontal yet mirrored by 1691 - when TK's are said to have given up the ghost?
Meanwhile, family of mine earned honorable mention when New Testament Holy Bible was written...... am wondering if this counts on this thread for somethin, even a pair of movie tickets, here in the TinHatCafe for searching insights which make thoughts worth thinkin.
Here's what my great, greeaat, greeeaaat, greeeaaaat Grandpappy used to say: "who gains the whole world returns for the soul."
These words he hollered outloud when the usual gang of scholars, RS & FRC et al. were scratching their heads over a decent punchline/slogan to fit Matthew 16:26 which posed the riddle but left the question unanswered.
C'mon crew gotta git in gear and reconnoitre stuff of KT import/export value here.
(:=
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yorick - malum discordiae
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by el3so » Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:53 am
don't know about all the Jesus stuff but I am pretty darn sure them being one of the very first and rich credit-lenders was in part the reason for their downfall.ProzacElf wrote: the group that allegedly is descended from Jesus's brother and that started banking practices...
French king at the time was a big debtor, he kinda used the Stalin "no man, no problem" doctrine
IMHO quite a bit of the "keepers of forbidden knowledge" legend was based on false accusations, a quick way to get them sentenced to death on grounds of witchery.
Same goes for Jewish money-lenders. Their crime wasn't somch drinking of christian babies' blood, rather they kept asking for their money and interests back...
Oops, forgot this is tin-foil-hat section. Although I haven't nor will I read his book, Dan Brown is 100% right! ;-)
skynet prompt: witty line, a bit offensive, medium levels of spelling error, Rastafy by 10 % or so
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by yorick » Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:36 am
ProzacElf wrote:If I'm not mistaken, the Merovingian dynasty in France was allied with the Knights Templar....
Ye aint just whistlin dixie, Pro!!
And then just for shits'n grins nutball Pope of the Catholic Church *commanded* Knights Templar to destroy Cathars camped out in Southern France who themselves were kin to Merovingians, even linked to Essenes with whom Jesus Christ himself was connected.
Most of the Templars refused to participate in the attack on Cathar's Castle, and those who did were forever disgraced with the nickname "peau de vache" - an ultimate insult that remains in the language today.
And why should calling somebody the skin of cow be insulting? That's easy..... peaceful Cathars didnt stock alot of ammo and were running out of food during the seige so they litterally hurled inedible byproducts, chunks of hides from their livestock upon those "templar knights" who were assaulting the castle.
Attacking and beseiging the Cathars sucked for Templars, few of em wanted to particpate, most of em deserted instead and those who remained allowed Cathars to escape at will if they so chose.
This marked the point where French public opinion turned against Knights Templar for attacking and wiping out harmless Cathars who themselves protected ancient esoteric traditions and healing arts that went back more than a thousand years.
(:=
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yorick - malum discordiae
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by yorick » Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:07 pm
And all that nonsense about "age of chivalry" never happened. Instead common folk were scared to death whenever Templar Knights rode into town.
Probably the closest thing we've seen on the exoteric level to Knights Templar at recent times is Hell's Angels Motorcycle Club, you understand.
Although among mystical circles the actual benevolent egregore of templarism is said to have been reawakened at/near 1961.
(:=
Probably the closest thing we've seen on the exoteric level to Knights Templar at recent times is Hell's Angels Motorcycle Club, you understand.
Although among mystical circles the actual benevolent egregore of templarism is said to have been reawakened at/near 1961.
(:=
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yorick - malum discordiae
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by cbychoice » Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:57 pm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03691a.htm
also
(3) THEIR TRAGIC END
In the trial of the Templars two phases must be distinguished: the royal commission and the papal commission.
First phase: The royal commission
Philip the Fair made a preliminary inquiry, and, on the strength of so-called revelations of a few unworthy and degraded members, secret orders were sent throughout France to arrest all the Templars on the same day (13 October, 1307), and to submit them to a most rigorous examination. The king did this, it was made to appear, at the request of the ecclesiastical inquisitors, but in reality without their co-operation.
In this inquiry torture, the use of which was authorized by the cruel procedure of the age in the case of crimes committed without witnesses, was pitilessly employed. Owing to the lack of evidence, the accused could be convicted only through their own confession and, to extort this confession, the use of torture was considered necessary and legitimate.
There was one feature in the organization of the order which gave rise to suspicion, namely the secrecy with which the rites of initiation were conducted. The secrecy is explained by the fact that the receptions always took place in a chapter, and the chapters, owing to the delicate and grave questions discussed, were, and necessarily had to be, held in secret. An indiscretion in the matter of secrecy entailed exclusion from the order. The secrecy of these initiations, however, had two grave disadvantages.
As these receptions could take place wherever there was a commandery, they were carried on without publicity and were free from all surveillance or control from the higher authorities, the tests being entrusted to the discretion of subalterns who were often rough and uncultivated. Under such conditions, it is not to be wondered at that abuses crept in. One need only recall what took place almost daily at the time in the brotherhoods of artisans, the initiation of a new member being too often made the occasion for a parody more or less sacrilegious of baptism or of the Mass.
The second disadvantage of this secrecy was, that it gave an opportunity to the enemies of the Templars, and they were numerous, to infer from this mystery every conceivable malicious supposition and base on it the monstrous imputations. The Templars were accused of spitting upon the Cross, of denying Christ, of permitting sodomy, of worshipping an idol, all in the most impenetrable secrecy. Such were the Middle Ages, when prejudice was so vehement that, to destroy an adversary, men did not recoil from inventing the most criminal charges. It will suffice to recall the similar, but even more ridiculous than ignominious accusations brought against Pope Boniface VIII by the same Philip the Fair.
Most of the accused declared themselves guilty of these secret crimes after being subjected to such ferocious torture that many of them succumbed. Some made similar confessions without the use of torture, it is true, but through fear of it; the threat had been sufficient. Such was the case with the grand master himself, Jacques de Molay, who acknowledged later that he had lied to save his life.
Carried on without the authorization of the pope, who had the military orders under his immediate jurisdiction, this investigation was radically corrupt both as to its intent and as to its procedure. Not only did Clement V enter an energetic protest, but he annulled the entire trial and suspended the powers of the bishops and their inquisitors. However, the offense had been admitted and remained the irrevocable basis of the entire subsequent proceedings. Philip the Fair took advantage of the discovery to have bestowed upon himself by the University of Paris the title of Champion and Defender of the Faith, and also to stir up public opinion at the States General of Tours against the heinous crimes of the Templars. Moreover, he succeeded in having the confessions of the accused confirmed in presence of the pope by seventy-two Templars, who had been specially chosen and coached beforehand. In view of this investigation at Poitiers (June, 1308), the pope, until then sceptical, at last became concerned and opened a new commission, the procedure of which he himself directed. He reserved the cause of the order to the papal commission, leaving individuals to be tried by the diocesan commissions to whom he restored their powers.
Second phase: The papal commission
The second phase of the process was the papal inquiry, which was not restricted to France, but extended to all the Christian countries of Europe, and even to the Orient. In most of the other countries -- Portugal, Spain, Germany, Cyprus -- the Templars were found innocent; in Italy, except for a few districts, the decision was the same. But in France the episcopal inquisitions, resuming their activities, took the facts as established at the trial, and confined themselves to reconciling the repentant guilty members, imposing various canonical penances extending even to perpetual imprisonment. Only those who persisted in heresy were to be turned over to the secular arm, but, by a rigid interpretation of this provision, those who had withdrawn their former confessions were considered relapsed heretics; thus fifty-four Templars who had recanted after having confessed were condemned as relapsed and publicly burned on 12 May, 1310. Subsequently all the other Templars, who had been examined at the trial, with very few exceptions declared themselves guilty.
At the same time the papal commission, appointed to examine the cause of the order, had entered upon its duties and gathered together the documents which were to be submitted to the pope, and to the general council called to decide as to the final fate of the order. The culpability of single persons, which was looked upon as established, did not involve the guilt of the order. Although the defense of the order was poorly conducted, it could not be proved that the order as a body professed any heretical doctrine, or that a secret rule, distinct from the official rule, was practised. Consequently, at the General Council of Vienne in Dauphiné on 16 October, 1311, the majority were favourable to the maintenance of the order.
The pope, irresolute and harrassed, finally adopted a middle course: he decreed the dissolution, not the condemnation of the order, and not by penal sentence, but by an Apostolic Decree (Bull of 22 March, 1312). The order having been suppressed, the pope himself was to decide as to the fate of its members and the disposal of its possessions. As to the property, it was turned over to the rival Order of Hospitallers to be applied to its original use, namely the defence of the Holy Places. In Portugal, however, and in Aragon the possessions were vested in two new orders, the Order of Christ in Portugal and the Order of Montesa in Aragon. As to the members, the Templars recognized guiltless were allowed either to join another military order or to return to the secular state. In the latter case, a pension for life, charged to the possessions of the order, was granted them. On the other hand, the Templars who had pleaded guilty before their bishops were to be treated "according to the rigours of justice, tempered by a generous mercy".
The pope reserved to his own jugment the cause of the grand master and his three first dignitaries. They had confessed their guilt; it remained to reconcile them with the Church, after they had testified to their repentance with the customary solemnity. To give this solemnity more publicity, a platform was erected in front of the Notre-Dame for the reading of the sentence. But at the supreme moment the grand master recovered his courage and proclaimed the innocence of the Templars and the falsity of his own alleged confessions. To atone for this deplorable moment of weakness, he declared himself ready to sacrifice his life. He knew the fate that awaited him. Immediately after this unexpected coup-de-théâtre he was arrested as a relapsed heretic with another dignitary who chose to share his fate, and by order of Philip they were burned at the stake before the gates of the palace. This brave death deeply impressed the people, and, as it happened that the pope and the king died shortly afterwards, the legend spread that the grand master in the midst of the flames had summoned them both to appear in the course of the year before the tribunal of God.
Such was the tragic end of the Templars. If we consider that the Order of Hospitallers finally inherited, although not without difficulties, the property of the Templars and received many of its members, we may say that the result of the trial was practically equivalent to the long-proposed amalgamation of the two rival orders. For the Knights (first of Rhodes, afterwards of Malta) took up and carried on elsewhere the work of the Knights of the Temple.
This formidable trial, the greatest ever brought to light whether we consider the large number of accused, the difficulty of discovering the truth from a mass of suspicious and contradictory evidence, or the many jurisdictions in activity simultaneously in all parts of Christendom from Great Britain to Cyprus, is not yet ended. It is still passionately discussed by historians who have divided into two camps, for and against the order. To mention only the principal ones, the following find the order guilty: Dupuy (1654), Hammer (1820), Wilcke (1826), Michelet (1841), Loiseleur (1872), Prutz (1888), and Rastoul (1905); the following find it innocent: Father Lejeune (1789), Raynouard (1813), Havemann (1846), Ladvocat (1880), Schottmuller (1887), Gmelin (1893), Lea (1888), Fincke (1908). Without taking any side in this discussion, which is not yet exhausted, we may observe that the latest documents brought to light, particularly those which Fincke has recently extracted from the archives of the Kingdom of Aragon, tell more and more strongly in favour of the order.
also
(3) THEIR TRAGIC END
In the trial of the Templars two phases must be distinguished: the royal commission and the papal commission.
First phase: The royal commission
Philip the Fair made a preliminary inquiry, and, on the strength of so-called revelations of a few unworthy and degraded members, secret orders were sent throughout France to arrest all the Templars on the same day (13 October, 1307), and to submit them to a most rigorous examination. The king did this, it was made to appear, at the request of the ecclesiastical inquisitors, but in reality without their co-operation.
In this inquiry torture, the use of which was authorized by the cruel procedure of the age in the case of crimes committed without witnesses, was pitilessly employed. Owing to the lack of evidence, the accused could be convicted only through their own confession and, to extort this confession, the use of torture was considered necessary and legitimate.
There was one feature in the organization of the order which gave rise to suspicion, namely the secrecy with which the rites of initiation were conducted. The secrecy is explained by the fact that the receptions always took place in a chapter, and the chapters, owing to the delicate and grave questions discussed, were, and necessarily had to be, held in secret. An indiscretion in the matter of secrecy entailed exclusion from the order. The secrecy of these initiations, however, had two grave disadvantages.
As these receptions could take place wherever there was a commandery, they were carried on without publicity and were free from all surveillance or control from the higher authorities, the tests being entrusted to the discretion of subalterns who were often rough and uncultivated. Under such conditions, it is not to be wondered at that abuses crept in. One need only recall what took place almost daily at the time in the brotherhoods of artisans, the initiation of a new member being too often made the occasion for a parody more or less sacrilegious of baptism or of the Mass.
The second disadvantage of this secrecy was, that it gave an opportunity to the enemies of the Templars, and they were numerous, to infer from this mystery every conceivable malicious supposition and base on it the monstrous imputations. The Templars were accused of spitting upon the Cross, of denying Christ, of permitting sodomy, of worshipping an idol, all in the most impenetrable secrecy. Such were the Middle Ages, when prejudice was so vehement that, to destroy an adversary, men did not recoil from inventing the most criminal charges. It will suffice to recall the similar, but even more ridiculous than ignominious accusations brought against Pope Boniface VIII by the same Philip the Fair.
Most of the accused declared themselves guilty of these secret crimes after being subjected to such ferocious torture that many of them succumbed. Some made similar confessions without the use of torture, it is true, but through fear of it; the threat had been sufficient. Such was the case with the grand master himself, Jacques de Molay, who acknowledged later that he had lied to save his life.
Carried on without the authorization of the pope, who had the military orders under his immediate jurisdiction, this investigation was radically corrupt both as to its intent and as to its procedure. Not only did Clement V enter an energetic protest, but he annulled the entire trial and suspended the powers of the bishops and their inquisitors. However, the offense had been admitted and remained the irrevocable basis of the entire subsequent proceedings. Philip the Fair took advantage of the discovery to have bestowed upon himself by the University of Paris the title of Champion and Defender of the Faith, and also to stir up public opinion at the States General of Tours against the heinous crimes of the Templars. Moreover, he succeeded in having the confessions of the accused confirmed in presence of the pope by seventy-two Templars, who had been specially chosen and coached beforehand. In view of this investigation at Poitiers (June, 1308), the pope, until then sceptical, at last became concerned and opened a new commission, the procedure of which he himself directed. He reserved the cause of the order to the papal commission, leaving individuals to be tried by the diocesan commissions to whom he restored their powers.
Second phase: The papal commission
The second phase of the process was the papal inquiry, which was not restricted to France, but extended to all the Christian countries of Europe, and even to the Orient. In most of the other countries -- Portugal, Spain, Germany, Cyprus -- the Templars were found innocent; in Italy, except for a few districts, the decision was the same. But in France the episcopal inquisitions, resuming their activities, took the facts as established at the trial, and confined themselves to reconciling the repentant guilty members, imposing various canonical penances extending even to perpetual imprisonment. Only those who persisted in heresy were to be turned over to the secular arm, but, by a rigid interpretation of this provision, those who had withdrawn their former confessions were considered relapsed heretics; thus fifty-four Templars who had recanted after having confessed were condemned as relapsed and publicly burned on 12 May, 1310. Subsequently all the other Templars, who had been examined at the trial, with very few exceptions declared themselves guilty.
At the same time the papal commission, appointed to examine the cause of the order, had entered upon its duties and gathered together the documents which were to be submitted to the pope, and to the general council called to decide as to the final fate of the order. The culpability of single persons, which was looked upon as established, did not involve the guilt of the order. Although the defense of the order was poorly conducted, it could not be proved that the order as a body professed any heretical doctrine, or that a secret rule, distinct from the official rule, was practised. Consequently, at the General Council of Vienne in Dauphiné on 16 October, 1311, the majority were favourable to the maintenance of the order.
The pope, irresolute and harrassed, finally adopted a middle course: he decreed the dissolution, not the condemnation of the order, and not by penal sentence, but by an Apostolic Decree (Bull of 22 March, 1312). The order having been suppressed, the pope himself was to decide as to the fate of its members and the disposal of its possessions. As to the property, it was turned over to the rival Order of Hospitallers to be applied to its original use, namely the defence of the Holy Places. In Portugal, however, and in Aragon the possessions were vested in two new orders, the Order of Christ in Portugal and the Order of Montesa in Aragon. As to the members, the Templars recognized guiltless were allowed either to join another military order or to return to the secular state. In the latter case, a pension for life, charged to the possessions of the order, was granted them. On the other hand, the Templars who had pleaded guilty before their bishops were to be treated "according to the rigours of justice, tempered by a generous mercy".
The pope reserved to his own jugment the cause of the grand master and his three first dignitaries. They had confessed their guilt; it remained to reconcile them with the Church, after they had testified to their repentance with the customary solemnity. To give this solemnity more publicity, a platform was erected in front of the Notre-Dame for the reading of the sentence. But at the supreme moment the grand master recovered his courage and proclaimed the innocence of the Templars and the falsity of his own alleged confessions. To atone for this deplorable moment of weakness, he declared himself ready to sacrifice his life. He knew the fate that awaited him. Immediately after this unexpected coup-de-théâtre he was arrested as a relapsed heretic with another dignitary who chose to share his fate, and by order of Philip they were burned at the stake before the gates of the palace. This brave death deeply impressed the people, and, as it happened that the pope and the king died shortly afterwards, the legend spread that the grand master in the midst of the flames had summoned them both to appear in the course of the year before the tribunal of God.
Such was the tragic end of the Templars. If we consider that the Order of Hospitallers finally inherited, although not without difficulties, the property of the Templars and received many of its members, we may say that the result of the trial was practically equivalent to the long-proposed amalgamation of the two rival orders. For the Knights (first of Rhodes, afterwards of Malta) took up and carried on elsewhere the work of the Knights of the Temple.
This formidable trial, the greatest ever brought to light whether we consider the large number of accused, the difficulty of discovering the truth from a mass of suspicious and contradictory evidence, or the many jurisdictions in activity simultaneously in all parts of Christendom from Great Britain to Cyprus, is not yet ended. It is still passionately discussed by historians who have divided into two camps, for and against the order. To mention only the principal ones, the following find the order guilty: Dupuy (1654), Hammer (1820), Wilcke (1826), Michelet (1841), Loiseleur (1872), Prutz (1888), and Rastoul (1905); the following find it innocent: Father Lejeune (1789), Raynouard (1813), Havemann (1846), Ladvocat (1880), Schottmuller (1887), Gmelin (1893), Lea (1888), Fincke (1908). Without taking any side in this discussion, which is not yet exhausted, we may observe that the latest documents brought to light, particularly those which Fincke has recently extracted from the archives of the Kingdom of Aragon, tell more and more strongly in favour of the order.
A little bit of inconsistancy saves a lot of explanation later
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cbychoice - BFCus Regularus
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by yorick » Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:23 pm
>>>Owing to the lack of evidence, the accused could be convicted only through their own confession and, to extort this confession, the use of torture was considered necessary and legitimate.
Interestingly, this legal tradition with variations continued into 18th Century Massachusetts..... Imagine that!! - Religious loonies calling themselves "puritans" while sustaining barbaric code of justice from 400 yrs earlier.
Here's the deal: If somebody was 'tried' in Massachusettes Colonial Court they'd sometimes be tortured by placing a board across their chest and then heavy stones would be heaped upon it until the guy either sufforcated or confessed.
But here's the rub...... if the guy was found 'guilty' by confession then the court could decide to execute the fellow anyhow and the court would inherit his estate, otherwise it went to his family if he died under torture and never confessed at all.
C'mon gotta be more Templar Trivia going around.
(:=
Interestingly, this legal tradition with variations continued into 18th Century Massachusetts..... Imagine that!! - Religious loonies calling themselves "puritans" while sustaining barbaric code of justice from 400 yrs earlier.
Here's the deal: If somebody was 'tried' in Massachusettes Colonial Court they'd sometimes be tortured by placing a board across their chest and then heavy stones would be heaped upon it until the guy either sufforcated or confessed.
But here's the rub...... if the guy was found 'guilty' by confession then the court could decide to execute the fellow anyhow and the court would inherit his estate, otherwise it went to his family if he died under torture and never confessed at all.
C'mon gotta be more Templar Trivia going around.
(:=
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yorick - malum discordiae
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