The absurdity of existence

[orion]

Death is the final note in the absurd symphony of existence. It is meaningless until I have become 'dead' and know anything different. There may be an afterlife and it may be the 'point' of everything, let's hope so

This is the agnostic viewpoint, where human life may or not have a meaning, and there may be some kind of creator who made everything. The agnostic viewpoint presently gathers more adherents in the west, from those who dislike the dogma of established theology yet find nothing meaningful in the limited explanations of science.

But the agnostic viewpoint is as absurd as that of the most fervent religionist. It is also as absurd as the guessing game of modern astro-physicism - those who try to explain the un-knowable. Here's what I think:

If something happens when I die, say, an afterlife of sorts, for my previous conscious existence to have "a point" a "meaning", then it (the afterlife), too, must have an even higher meaning, otherwise it is as unknowable as my present existence, hence meaningless and absurd. If this afterlife has a point, in another plane of existence above it, and so on, where does the question "What is the point of that?" finally end?

This can go on infinitely - if there is a God who has moulded humans, then what is the point of God? Theists say God has no outside and cannot be explained, but how can that happen? Christians, Jews, Muslims and the polytheists cannot answer that. It is an absurd situation with no resolution - infinite and pointless and, yes, absurd.

Therefore:

If death is a state of total non-existence then life has no point - it's absurd and pointless. We come from nothingness, live briefly and re-enter nothingness for no reason at all - the ultimate farce.

On the other hand, say there is a form of afterlife, what is it's point? it's purpose? Nothing can be considered to have an ultimate point, nothing can be in a state of "always having been there" can it? All through the universe things are born, live and die, why should a God be different?

Even if this series of points (afterlives, God/creators - heaven/hells?) did come to a finite end, they might still not satisfy us. The result may not be satisfactory enough to give a "point" to life at all.

Therefore, life is absurd, as is death - there is no point to existence

[Sri Lanky]

We just don't know.

What if there are other worlds and dimensions that we enter or exist in simultaneously that we are not aware of?.....until physical death releases us from this bondage.

[orion]

We just don't know.

What if there are other worlds and dimensions that we enter or exist in simultaneously that we are not aware of?.....until physical death releases us from this bondage.

Good question, I recommend you read "Parallel Worlds" by Michio Kaku - it will blow your mind, it's full of the latest theories of the universe - super strings and 11 dimensional space among other stuff which is pretty mind-numbing - for example, can you imagine a whole universe(s) within 1mm from you, existing right beside you in your room? These possibilities are explored in this amazing book, awesome.

[coldharvest]

"Parallel Worlds" by Michio Kaku

Excellent book

[yorick]

All through the universe things are born, live and die, why should a God be different?

I think it was Aleister Crowley who defined God as the "properties, principles and laws of God which are God." And in this sense diety/omniety is not subject to laws of existance - its the other way around. All things manifest, and even 'nothingness' defined by principles and laws of nothingness, are subject to God.


(:=

[Sri Lanky]

God isn't separate....only humans consciously or unconsciously separate themselves from the universe....which causes great pain.

[Gopi]

what is the point of God?

He is the Supreme Enjoyer, the Reservoir of Pleasure and the Origin of Everything.

All through the universe things are born, live and die, why should a God be different?

Matter is always temporary and Spirit is always eternal.

The result may not be satisfactory enough to give a "point" to life at all.

Everyone is looking for an eternal relationship that can't be ended by death or separation.


Maybe we are all just a bunch of forgetful, independent little fucks who are way too egotistical for our own good.
Perhaps this material wheel will eventually bring us to some spiritual submission and respect.

Perhaps there is an end to the journey.

Just because so much crap is spouted in the name of religion doesn't mean that it is all shit.

My cup is half full.

[Fansy]

Everyone is looking for an eternal relationship that can't be ended by death or separation.

I will be fine if I feel it likely that no one will be rewarded with this.

Maybe we are all just a bunch of forgetful, independent little fucks who are way too egotistical for our own good.

And yet you have provided no reason to agree with you here. We seem to be quite more memory-capable than most animals, and some amount of independence is always necessary in any organism's successful maturation and life cycle. And if being egotistical has gotten us to where we are now, how can it be all that bad? You have made value judgments without justifying your own values that had informed those judgments.

Perhaps this material wheel will eventually bring us to some spiritual submission and respect.

Perhaps it will, but perhaps this is a bad thing. You make it sound like a fundamentally preferred destiny for humankind. Your contemptible description of human behavioral norms above leads me to believe you have arbitrarily chosen to be quite presumptuous concerning what you feel to be best for us and our destiny. If I preferred eternal non-existence and annihilation for all, my desire would be just as valid (even if socially less appealing). The real-world implications, therefore, when acting upon our respective beliefs could be quite interesting and yet equally justified.

Perhaps there is an end to the journey.

Perhaps there is not. Moot point.

Just because so much crap is spouted in the name of religion doesn't mean that it is all shit.

It doesn't imply the opposite, either.

My cup is half full.

I break cups before I can check the contents and be tempted by the illusions they inevitably offer.

[Sri Lanky]

Ego is an essential part of evolution but it will also be the death of us if we don't as individuals and as a collective move beyond our egocentricity to a worldcentric mode of consciousness.

Suicide is the last stance of ego.

[Gopi]

We're forgetful in that most people don't remember what they were doing this time last year let alone yesterday afternoon. So in the scheme of things we're in a pretty forgetful state. We'd all be insane if we could remember being born.

People identify so strongly with their sex, nation and religion that you get division. My idea of a healthy ego is that I identify with my spiritual identity more strongly than with my temporary material identity.

Our independence is a wonderful thing. It can just be disappointing what we end up doing with it. You can smash all the cups. Someone may try and stop you but I doubt it would be God.

I think spiritual submission and respect is probably a preferred state to spiritual domination and disrespect. My spiritual life has nothing to do with your spiritual life as long as we desire it that way.

[Fansy]

We're forgetful in that most people don't remember what they were doing this time last year let alone yesterday afternoon. So in the scheme of things we're in a pretty forgetful state. We'd all be insane if we could remember being born.

Not that I think being forgetful is significant or insignificant, but I don't quite get the "in the scheme of things" statement. I pointed out, in the scheme of life on earth, we have among the best of memories. What benchmark are you judging this against? What is your basis for how perfectly the ideal memory would operate? It seems that if an eidetic-ish memory were all that important throughout our evolutionary existence, most of us would feature it.

Our independence is a wonderful thing. It can just be disappointing what we end up doing with it. You can smash all the cups. Someone may try and stop you but I doubt it would be God.

It's hard to assign culpability for the "trying to stop" action to any one person; if I recall correctly, you stated that God was the origin of all things? originator of all things? Traditionally, the problem of evil has been an unresolved criticism in the theology of Christianity (at least in the minds of its critics). Since at the moment I have very little understanding of your own religious leanings/beliefs, I won't make this point with much force, but, it's hard to assign God the role of creator and yet free him of responsibility of any problems, actions, or thoughts of existence's participants.

I think spiritual submission and respect is probably a preferred state to spiritual domination and disrespect. My spiritual life has nothing to do with your spiritual life as long as we desire it that way.

I normally don't wish to antagonize other people and their beliefs; it's really for personal practice and thought refinement. And I think you diffused my last response very well with the phrasing of this post. And, well, that implies wisdom, and my words and thoughts usually can't compete with a little of that. I might have to bow out of this early.

[nowonmai]

I don't presume to know whether its absurd or not. The chances of me understanding it are about the same as the bacteria in my u-bend being able to fix my boiler.

All things being equal I think you just have to do what you think is right and try and walk in other peoples shoes.

[Gopi]

If you are forgetful of your spiritual identity then you are materially entrenched. Materially and spiritually it's significant because it leads to ignorance (which leads to frustration). I never said anything about memory, which I agree is good. ...Even if we are very short lived, which is what I meant by in the scheme of things. What chance to we get to work out our place in eternal time, with no significant pointers, and a life span of approximately 80 years (in the developed world if you're lucky).? Like finding a broken clock, putting it in a bag and shaking it, taking it out and expecting to tell the time.

That being said I still feel that order to justify my fortune I must own responsibility for my own actions. In a free and loving relationship coercion is not an issue, and I feel that is the relationship that I can expect with God especially. And if there is a God I wouldn't expect to have that free and loving relationship with Him until I had given up all my desire to try and enjoy myself independently from Him. And since that is probably not going to happen within the next little while, I guess I won't know any more than anyone else for now.

I agree that speculating is a waist of time and that it's intelligent to follow the example of people that you admire. It's not like this is a cheap ride, so it's not going to be easy find a seat.

I do still find it really interesting that living bodies are fascinating, and that dead bodies are repulsive. The life or soul or spiritual spark that leaves the body is the attractive thing. I have no reason to believe that it dies when the body dies. I never saw it, only it's dynamic effect on the meat bus. Hope and faith give all survivors the edge, so like I said I see no reason not to have it.

[Gopi]

Actually I am fully aware that ignorance actually leads to bliss.

[denise]

i have thought quite a bit about immortality recently, particularly the idea of remembering whatever past you have had beyond this current life. and the psychological and emotional difficulties that could entail if you were to take the step from this life into the future. i think it would become very important to protect your own psyche requiring a strong and cautious spirit to accept that sort of challenge. the reason i would not want the bliss of ignorance is because i would not want to subject my soul to the same sort of crisis and mistakes over and over again. i cannot imagine that i would ever want to repeat the pain i have endured in my current life.

i will only live without God if i have to, but that's up to him.