I Love Aipac

[Hitoru]

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/10/06 ... ael-lobby/

[Wayne]

Watch out for the black helicopters.

[Hitoru]

Watch out for the black helicopters.

I watched them train back 97-98 ?
They crashed a helo in Sugarland TX and killed one troop.

[redharen]

And Paul McCartney died and was replaced by a lookalike.

I think people forget the speed and confusion that prevailed during the Six-Day War. The attack on the Liberty happened on Day 4, I think, when the Israelis were pursuing the Egyptians through the Sinai amid all sorts of bedlam. There had just been an onshore explosion (at El Arish, I think, but I could be wrong) whose source was unknown, although it was later determined to have come from a fire in an ammunition dump. No one in Tel Aviv could have known that, though, and since the Liberty was steaming toward Port Said, the Israelis made a mistake and attacked it.

Tapes of the communications between the Mirage planes and their ground controllers indicate that the pilots saw no flag. During the attack, one of them radioed back the letters on the ship's bow, at which point the strafing was immediately called off. The Israeli government not only sent apologies, but ended up sending millions of dollars to the families of the Liberty's crew.

The US government knew the folly of putting a ship that close to the conflict; orders had been issued for the Liberty to stay 100 miles away, but those orders were routed through a communications boondoggle before ever getting to the ship.

Attacks between allies are always hush-hush. I don't think it has much to do with AIPAC at all. It's similar to the fuzzy details we always get about friendly-fire incidents. At the time, everyone was trying to figure out how to view this war, and the prevailing view was that it was an American-Soviet proxy war. Add to that the potential of nuclear strikes, and everyone was on eggshells. Publicizing an Israeli attack on an American ship would only undermine the appearance of solidarity that America was trying to foster during the Cold War.

As for the AIPAC bogeyman, I still assert that even lobbies are subject to the will of the people, and the Israel lobby succeeds because Americans are generally in support of it. If that changes, people will quit voting for pro-Israel politicians. Maybe it's not that simple, but seeing as how Israelis can't even organize their own politics, I'm skeptical about the degree to which they can manipulate US affairs against the will of the populace.

[Hitoru]

First off I posted in Tin-Foil Hat. That said I don't believe Apaic has anything to with it either. But Apaic is does have the ears and purse strings of our politicians and does affect policy towards Israel.

Second, The Israeli's said it was all a mistake, but no one was punished or reprimanded. The boat that torpedoed the Liberty has been honored . Motor Boat 203's wheel and bell have been placed on prominent display at the naval museum. The attack was recorded by a EC-121 with a Hebrew linguist on board and he has stated that there was references the the flag during the attack.

El Arish appears to be the reason the Liberty was attacked, as Israeli troops where killing up to 1000 Egyptian POWS in the Sinai and up to 400 at El Arish according to Israeli military historian Aryeh Yitzhaki.

[redharen]

First off I posted in Tin-Foil Hat. That said I don't believe Apaic has anything to with it either. But Apaic is does have the ears and purse strings of our politicians and does affect policy towards Israel.

True, true. It also has the hearts of many of our people.

Second, The Israeli's said it was all a mistake, but no one was punished or reprimanded. The boat that torpedoed the Liberty has been honored . Motor Boat 203's wheel and bell have been placed on prominent display at the naval museum. The attack was recorded by a EC-121 with a Hebrew linguist on board and he has stated that there was references the the flag during the attack.

Was the boat honored specifically for its torpedoing of the Liberty, or for its overall actions during the 1967 war? By "honored," are you talking about the wheel and bell being placed on prominent display? Because the Roman siege works at Masada, the Syrian tanks in the Golan, and the wrecked Israeli transports near Latrun have been similarly "honored."

Regarding the linguist, there is no question as to the referencing of a flag during the attack; the Israeli air controller ordered the pilots to get visual on a flag, and the pilots reported that there was no flag. As far as I understand, the linguist did not say that the pilots saw any flag; he just said it was mentioned, as indeed it was.

I should say, too, that I think it's possible that the Israelis just didn't want what was obviously a spy ship in the waters anywhere near the war. For all the mutual support, the US and Israel trust each other a lot less than most people realize. They are each other's biggest intelligence/counterintelligence opponent.

Then again, during the first couple of days of the war, it was in Israel's interest to allow the world to believe Egypt's propaganda about stunning victories on every front. Israel wanted time to complete the destruction of its neighbors' militaries, secure its positions, and take land and prisoners for later exchanges before any UN-brokered ceasefire went into effect. By Day 4, when the Liberty attack took place, Israel was actually working with the US and Soviets to effect a ceasefire. It was Nasser who refused to capitulate. So as far as the war was progressing, Israel had a lot less to hide by the time the attack happened. Unless...

El Arish appears to be the reason the Liberty was attacked, as Israeli troops where killing up to 1000 Egyptian POWS in the Sinai and up to 400 at El Arish according to Israeli military historian Aryeh Yitzhaki.

This is possible, but Yitzhaki seems to be the only source of these allegations, for which no evidence has been found. Other historians say that his account of a mass killing at El Arish doesn't hold up. Egypt, which, of course, holds El Arish now, has offered no evidence of such a killing. It was the policy of IDF commanders -- and maybe not all of them -- to send Egyptian soldiers on their way after disarming them. This demoralized troops that were still fighting; their brothers-in-arms were heading home safely after having surrendered.

But governments hide things all the time. There's a good chance someone screwed up at El Arish. If they did, though, I doubt there would have been a coordinated effort of IDF leadership to cover it up, especially to the point of ordering Mirages to destroy a US ship, and plan out and record radio conversations that corroborated their version of events, all while fighting on three separate fronts.

[coldharvest]

True, true. It also has the hearts of many of our people.

I noticed you left out 'minds'.

[redharen]

True, true. It also has the hearts of many of our people.

I noticed you left out 'minds'.

That's also true...but the fact that many peoples' opinions on Israel are based simply on emotions doesn't mean that there aren't arguably sound intellectual justifications for America continuing its support of the Jewish state.

Indeed, the number of people who are making such emotional decisions is increasing as more and more televangelists are jumping on the Israel bandwagon. And because of that, we can expect an intellectual backlash, not because the Israel cause is intellectually bankrupt, but because -- well, what halfway smart person wants to be caught agreeing with those guys?

[coldharvest]

well, what halfway smart person wants to be caught agreeing with those guys?

True but in this rare case they are right to back Israel.

[Hitoru]

True, true. It also has the hearts of many of our people.

I noticed you left out 'minds'.

That's also true...but the fact that many peoples' opinions on Israel are based simply on emotions doesn't mean that there aren't arguably sound intellectual justifications for America continuing its support of the Jewish state.

Indeed, the number of people who are making such emotional decisions is increasing as more and more televangelists are jumping on the Israel bandwagon. And because of that, we can expect an intellectual backlash, not because the Israel cause is intellectually bankrupt, but because -- well, what halfway smart person wants to be caught agreeing with those guys?

Hey Redharen, you sure know a lot more about Israel than I do, and truly there are many sound justifications for supporting Israel but there are many reasons not to, beyond the obvious financial ones (and discounting the Liberty). The spying on the U.S. by Pollard, Larry Franklin and the "art students" come to mind.( I met four of them). And Aipac has been investigated by the the FBI numerous times for spying on the U.S.

So my question is,why does Aipac seem to wield extraordinary clout as much as it appears with so many our politicians in both parties? (who accept Aipac's large campaign contributions)

And hey man, John Hagee is my Hero !

[redharen]

So my question is,why does Aipac seem to wield extraordinary clout as much as it appears with so many our politicians in both parties? (who accept Aipac's large campaign contributions)

And hey man, John Hagee is my Hero !

Dude, let me just say first that I think you're a great poster because people can disagree with you, and you don't react by calling them idiots. You actually want to talk about things. So cheers for that -- nice to run into folks like you on the BFC.

I think there are probably two answers to your question. The first reminds me of a scene in Charlie Wilson's War in which the congressman is asked why someone from a podunk district in Texas has given so much support to Israel. Wilson responds that there are only six Jews in his district, but they're his biggest campaign donors.

Without stereotyping the American Jewish community or suggesting a financial conspiracy, it's true to say that American Jewish culture places a high emphasis on community involvement, philanthropy, and overall giving to what they consider good causes. Donating to politicians who support Israel definitely falls within that category for many people. I know middle-class Jewish families who give a surprisingly large portion of their income to such candidates and causes.

So there is that element, but many people stop there and conclude that AIPAC wields an influence that is somehow sinister and against the democratic principles of the United States. To them, this is an example of disproportionate wealth skewing the political process.

What they don't pay attention to is the fact that, like we talked about before, most Americans are supportive of Israel and don't have a problem with AIPAC's policies. If they did have a problem, AIPAC's clout would be rendered moot by the fact that a congressman who supported Israel too heavily would simply be voted out of office. Moreover, larger and larger amounts of money are being donated by Christians in support of Israel.

You might have been joking about John Hagee, but I went to one of the Israel rallies he supports because I wanted to see firsthand what he's trying to bring about. Mind you, I live in Oklahoma, where the Jewish community is very small, but the auditorium hosting the event sold out about 6,000 seats and had to turn people away. They held an offering -- they literally passed the plate -- and within 10 minutes, $40,000 was raised for the Oklahoma City Jewish Federation.

Granted, this is in the Bible Belt, where the influence of guys like Hagee is felt more strongly. But when white-bread Oklahomans start handing over fistfuls of money to an ethnic group that, quite frankly, their parents and grandparents might have hated 50 years ago -- well, it signals to me that not only is there widespread support, but increasing support for Israel. Around here, I think a candidate would actually be voted out if he came out against AIPAC and Israel.

Finally, though, Israel is a bipartisan issue. A lot of Republicans support Israel because they're Christians and their motivation is ideological. Most Jewish voters are Democrats, and, likewise ideologically-motivated, they pull their party in that direction as well.

You make good points about there being good reasons for the US not to support Israel. I think isolationists make the best case. As for those who think our problems in the Middle East would be solved if the Israel/Palestine issue were out of the way...well, I don't think those folks understand the Middle East very well. But that's just me.

[Hitoru]

Right on...

And as you stated: As for those who think our problems in the Middle East would be solved if the Israel/Palestine issue were out of the way...well, I don't think those folks understand the Middle East very well. But that's just me.

Naw man, I agree with you, and I also think that 99% of the U.S. public doesn't understand or even care to understand.

But still, the "art students" still interests me. Do you have any insight on the subject ?

[redharen]

No insight on the Israeli art students. Your guess would be as good as mine. Was it an Israeli operation directed toward terrorists? Was it directed toward the US government itself? I guess we'll never know.

I guess we could get mad at the Israelis for it. But like I said, they're one of our biggest competitors in the intelligence/counterintelligence world. Take a look at any FBI/CIA/NSA job posting and Hebrew is listed as a preferred language right up there with Arabic. We spy on each other all the time; it's just easier for Israel to hide Mossad guys in the US than it is for America to hide CIA guys in Israel. I would bet that most US operations in Israel are based out of the embassy in Tel Aviv because the Shin Bet would out us in a second if we tried anything anywhere else.

When walking through Israel I had several encounters with mysterious men in remote places, demanding to know who I was and why I was there. Once outside an air base in the Negev; once on a dusty road in the middle of the desert, once on Mt. Meron, one of Israel's main surveillance bases. In every case we dealt with military or intelligence personnel who appeared suddenly, asked questions, and disappeared just as suddenly.

Politically, then, we are great allies, but below the surface, I don't think either side trusts the other very far at all. And rightfully so.

[michelle in alaska]

redharen, this is off-topic, but since we're in the tfhc----- wasn't ICQ originally developed and use by the Israelis as a spy device?

[Kurt]

redharen, this is off-topic, but since we're in the tfhc----- wasn't ICQ originally developed and use by the Israelis as a spy device?

That was kind of a rumor after the fact. It was invented by the Isrealis so they could chat with people online.