Old Souls

[Fansy]

Naturalism comes down to perspective as well. Almost everyone agrees that there's plenty going on in the universe that humans are incapable of sensing or measuring, that our understanding is limited. Dawkins and Denise might even be able to agree on that one. But is all that extra stuff at the fringes of our understanding natural, or supernatural? You can be a naturalist and believe tarot cards or Mohammed's interstellar journey, as long as you think the laws of physics are only partially understood. (And considering the failure of Newtonian physics and quantum mechanics to jibe, that's pretty much a given). And perspective is just consciousness filtered through our limited senses.

Naturalism is really just a way to not sound as crazy as people believe you are. Its rank and file are mostly of people who would like to bring in things poorly understood (mystic experiences, supernatural) under the umbrella of acceptable, testable science.

I don't have a big problem with that, but the inaccuracy seems to be in the significance placed on what these experiences mean. In that, I mean in the attempts by people to validate something that, at present, we have no methodology to validate. It's basically saying, "I had an experience which normal people would consider supernatural, but I believe there is an explanation which we don't have yet, and in the end it's natural." Well shit of course that's what you believe, Naturalist or not. Calling it supernatural or calling it Natural but inexplicable doesn't change the nature of the beast.

Anyway, I don't understand why life even has to have "meaning," especially some kind of manufactured meaning. My personal perspective is simply that life is the opposite of entropy, it is the organizing principle, but it's not like increasing complexity is especially meaningful (heh, well, unless life uses religion to organize things). Not in the sense of "Why are we here?" having an answer.

And even if there is a God, what does that mean? How does that make your life more meaningful? Maybe more bearable, because you can look forward to a little bit of peace, comfort, appreciation and relaxation in the end as a reward for being faithful rather than rational. But meaningful?

Meaningful here would be an irreducible feeling more than a value-judgment to be analyzed. When you are with friends, doing something you enjoy, etc, you feel good about what you are doing. This is what makes such an experience meaningful. Having a God and doing the "right thing" by Him is meaningful in that you can feel good about what you are doing.

[Fansy]

fansy, there is a misunderstanding here. i am not debating you. i am not trying to convert you. i am not asking you to validate my experience.

Your existence and desire to not remain mute belie all this. But that's okay, my very existence and militant agnosticism are in strong opposition to your beliefs. You know, it's like how even neighbors who you never see still suck, just because you know they're there.

i am not even all that personally concerned about this topic at the moment. if anything, i felt my experience fell somewhere outside the realm of both the scientific and faith communities.

You can feel that way, and it's certainly outside that which can be validated by science, but by divorcing yourself from the faith realm, it seems you're trying to avoid sounding traditionally religious. Either way, you still value experiences and interpretations of those experiences which can't be proven, and these lead you to a certain worldview which is often at odds with that which can be proven. I'd say this puts you somewhere within the faith community, even if you think they smell funny.

it was, however the most painful thing i've endured so maybe in an obtuse way i am attempting to plant a latent seed in the mind of any of the really smart rational types here, should they find themselves at some point in the future confronting a similarly situation they find both unexpected and overwhelming, perhaps i can assist in some way. so that's pretty much it.

I like you because you're human.

if you want to mentally masterbate to monkeys and miasmas, there are plenty of people who are better qualified to do so than me. although truly, fansy, the future these intelligent designers intend to engineer frightens me in a way no religion ever could.

i find your vision particularly horrifying.

Denise: Our way of life has sentimental value.
Nikolai: Sentimental value … I’ve heard of that.

[denise]

fansy, i've met all of my neighbors, i like all of my neighbors. unlike you, they've known me for the last 19 years yet none of them profess to tell me what i think or why i think it which probably has a lot to do with my still liking them through the occasional assault, battery, and property damage that occurs whenever people bother to get to know each other up close and personal.

i haven't disowned science and i admire people who have faith. i had one perspective, now i have two. i understand both of their methods, although i don't necessarily agree with their every conclusion. so what, neither system is unanimous or unsubject to change. nothing to freak out about there.

you're young, you're full of shit and piss and vinegar, and someday you'll get tired and die. you're okay with that and the thought of it isn't frightening me whatsoever. oh, nicholai. at first i was thinking machiavelli, but then i recalled the last few minutes i caught of some left behind movie. cute. and funny. maybe there is some hope left for you afterall ;)

[coldharvest]

[denise]

i can't see the picture, cold, what is it?

[Fansy]

i haven't disowned science and i admire people who have faith. i had one perspective, now i have two. i understand both of their methods, although i don't necessarily agree with their every conclusion. so what, neither system is unanimous or unsubject to change. nothing to freak out about there.

You may not have disowned it, but you've certainly made the decision, based on your beliefs and probably your actions, concerning which you'd back in a fight. AND FOR THAT YOU'LL BE UP AGAINST THE WALL WHEN THE REVOLUTION COMES.

you're young, you're full of shit and piss and vinegar, and someday you'll get tired and die. you're okay with that and the thought of it isn't frightening me whatsoever.

You old people are so judgmental.

oh, nicholai. at first i was thinking machiavelli, but then i recalled the last few minutes i caught of some left behind movie. cute. and funny. maybe there is some hope left for you afterall ;)

Nicholai will be recreated early on in the synthetic life initiative. He's not cute or funny. Stop it.

[denise]

still stuck on the taco incident, are we?

not judgmental, wise.

no.

[Fansy]

not judgmental, wise.

Since when are you so open about tootin' your own horn. Even if in jest, it's refreshing.

[denise]

judgmental yet understanding and therefore, forgiving.

wisdom maketh a person feel old despite their exterior appearance though they usually coincideth, excepteth in the case prodigies and idiots and even then, it's not so easy to tell.

i don't have any reason to toot my horn, and even if i thought i did, i'd stop and think better of it before someone told me to stop it ;)

[Fansy]

I feel old, therefore I'm wise.

I'm wise, therefore I'm right.

I'm right, therefore I must be wise.

I'm wise, therefore I'm right.

I'm right, therefore I must be wise.

I'm wise, therefore I'm right.

I'm right, therefore I must be wise.

ad infinitum

I can see how this chain of logic must be especially rewarding for a person looking for validation of their beliefs. I'm definitely going to give it a go when I feel a bit older.

[denise]

circular reasoning

[Sri Lanky]

My fart comment got zapped.....how very zen.

[coldharvest]

My fart comment got zapped.....how very zen.

..not by me Bro.

[flipflop]

My fart comment got zapped.....how very zen.

..not by me Bro.

The Lord moveth in mysterious ways

Amen