Mohammed and the Vatican Popes

[yorick]

Much of this information came from Alberto Rivera, former Jesuit
priest after his conversion to Christianity. It is excerpted from "The
Prophet," published by Chick Publications, PO Box 662, Chino CA 91708.

Since its publication, after several unsuccessful attempts on his
life, he died suddenly from food poisoning. His testimony should not
be silenced. Dr. Rivera speaks to us still...

Testimony of Alberto Rivera:

What I'm going to tell you is what I learned in secret
briefings in the Vatican when I was a Jesuit priest, under oath and
induction. A Jesuit cardinal named Augustine Bea showed us how
desperately the Roman Catholics wanted Jerusalem at the end of the third century. Because of its religious history and its strategic
location, the Holy City was considered a priceless treasure. A scheme had to be developed to make Jerusalem a Roman Catholic city.

The great untapped source of manpower that could do
this job was the children of Ishmael. The poor Arabs fell victim to one of the most clever plans ever devised by the powers of darkness.

Early Christians went everywhere with the gospel setting up small
churches, but they met heavy opposition. Both the Jews and the Roman government persecuted the believers in Christ to stop
their spread.

But the Jews rebelled against Rome, and in 70 AD, Roman armies under General Titus smashed Jerusalem and destroyed the
great Jewish temple which was the heart of Jewish worship, in fulfillment of Christ's prophecy in Matthew 24:2. On this holy place today where the temple once stood, the Dome of the Rock Mosque stands as Islam's third most holy place.

Sweeping changes were in the wind. Corruption, apathy, greed, cruelty, perversion and rebellion were eating at the Roman
Empire, and it was ready to collapse. The persecution against Christians was useless as they continued to lay down their lives for the gospel of Christ.

The only way Satan could stop this thrust was to create a counterfeit "Christian" religion to destroy the work of God. The
solution was in Rome.

Their religion had come from ancient Babylon and all
it needed was a face-lift.

This didn't happen overnight, but began in the writings of the "early
church fathers." It was through their writings that a new religion
would take shape.

The statue of Jupiter in Rome was eventually called St. Peter, and the statue of Venus was changed to the Virgin Mary. The site chosen for its headquarters was on one of the seven hills called
"Vaticanus," the place of diving serpent where the Satanic temple of Janus stood. The great counterfeit religion was Roman Catholicism, called "Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth." Revelation 17:5.

She was raised up to block the gospel, slaughter the believers in
Christ, establish religions, create wars and make the nations drunk
with the wine of her fornication as we will see.

The roots of Islam are traced to a tribal contention over a well,
(Zamzam), the treasure of the Kaaba. The offerings that pilgrims had given were dumped down the well and it was filled with
sand - it disappeared. Many years later Adb Al-Muttalib was
given visions telling him where to find the well and its treasure.
He became the hero of Mecca, and he was destined to become the
grandfather of Muhammad.

Before this time, Augustine became the bishop of North Africa and was effective in winning Arabs to Roman Catholicism, including whole tribes. It was among these Arab converts to Catholicism that the concept of looking for an Arab prophet developed.

Muhammad's father died from illness. After his mother and grandfather also died, Muhammad was with his uncle. A Roman
Catholic monk learned of his identity and said, "Take your brother's son back to his country and guard him against the Jews, for by god, if they see him and know of him that which I know, they will construe evil against him. Great things are in store for this brother's son of yours." The Roman Catholic monk had fanned the flames for future Jewish persecutions at the hands of the followers of Muhammad.

The Vatican desperately wanted Jerusalem because of its religious
significance, but was blocked by the Jews. Another problem was the
true Christians in North Africa who preached the gospel. Roman
Catholicism was growing in power, but would not tolerate opposition.

Somehow the Vatican had to create a weapon to eliminate both the Jews and the true Christian believers who refused to accept
Roman Catholicism.

Looking to North Africa, they saw the multitudes of Arabs as a source of manpower to do their dirty work. Some Arabs had become Roman Catholic, and could be used in reporting information to leaders in Rome. Others were used in an underground spy network
to carry out Rome's master plan to control the great multitudes of
Arabs who rejected Catholicism.

When "St Augustine" appeared on the scene, he knew what was going on. His monasteries served as bases to seek out and destroy Bible manuscripts owned by the true Christians. The Vatican wanted to create a messiah for the Arabs, someone they could raise up as a great leader, a man with charisma whom they could train, and eventually unite all the non-Catholic Arabs behind him, creating a mighty army that would ultimately capture Jerusalem for the pope.

In the Vatican briefing, Cardinal Bea told us this story: A wealthy
Arabian lady who was a faithful follower of the pope played a
tremendous part in this drama. She was a widow named Khadijah. She gave her wealth to the church and retired to a convent, but was given an assignment. She was to find a brilliant young man
who could be used by the Vatican to create a new religion and become the messiah for the children of Ishmael. Khadijah had a cousin named Waraquah,, who was also a very faithful Roman Catholic and the Vatican placed him in a critical role as Muhammad's advisor. He had tremendous influence on Muhammad. Teachers were sent to young Muhammad and he had intensive training.

Muhammad studied the works of St. Augustine which prepared him for his "great calling." The Vatican had Catholic Arabs across
North Africa spread the story of a great one who was about to rise
up among the people and be the chosen one of their God.

While Muhammad was being prepared, he was told that his enemies were the Jews and that the only true Christians were Roman Catholic. He was taught that others calling themselves Christians were actually wicked impostors and should be destroyed. Many Muslims believe this.

Muhammad began receiving "divine revelations" and his wife's Catholic cousin Waraquah helped interpret them. From this came
the Koran.

In the fifth year of Muhammad's mission, persecution came against his followers because they refused to worship the idols in the Kaaba. Muhammad instructed some of them to flee to Abysinnia
where Negus, the Roman Catholic king, accepted them because Muhammad's views on the virgin Mary were so close to Roman Catholic doctrine. These Muslims received protection from Catholic kings because of Muhammad's revelations.

Muhammad later conquered Mecca and the Kaaba was cleared of idols. History proves that before Islam came into existence, the Sabeans in Arabia worshipped the moon-god who was married to the sun-god. They gave birth to three goddesses who were worshipped throughout the Arab world as "Daughters of Allah" An idol excavated at Hazor in Palestine in 1950's shows Allah sitting on a throne with the crescent moon on his chest. Muhammad claimed he had a vision from Allah and was told, "You are the messenger of Allah." This began his career as a prophet and he received many messages.

By the time Muhammad died, the religion of Islam was exploding. The nomadic Arab tribes were joining forces in the name of Allah and his prophet, Muhammad. Some of Muhammad's writings were
placed in the Koran, others were never published. They are now in
the hands of high ranking holy men (Ayatollahs) in the Islamic faith.
When Cardinal Bea shared with us in the Vatican, he said, These writings are guarded because they contain information that links the Vatican to the creation of Islam. Both sides have so much information on each other, that if exposed, it could create such a scandal that it would be a disaster for both religions.

In their "holy" book, the Koran, Christ is regarded as only a prophet. If the pope was His representative on earth, then he also must be a prophet of God. This caused the followers of Muhammad
to fear and respect the pope as another "holy man."

The pope moved quickly and issued bulls granting the Arab generals permission to invade and conquer the nations of North
Africa. The Vatican helped to finance the building of these
massive Islamic armies in exchange for three favors:

Eliminate the Jews and Christians (true believers, which they called
infidels).

Protect the Augustinian Monks and Roman Catholics.

Conquer Jerusalem for "His Holiness" in the Vatican.

As time went by, the power of Islam became tremendous. Jews and true Christians were slaughtered, and Jerusalem fell into their hands. Roman Catholics were never attacked, nor were their
shrines, during this time. But when the pope asked for Jerusalem, he was surprised at their denial!

The Arab generals had such military success that they could not be
intimidated by the pope-nothing could stand in the way of their own
plan. Under Waraquah's direction, Muhammad wrote that Abraham offered Ishmael as a sacrifice. The Bible says that Isaac was the sacrifice, but Muhammad removed Isaac's name and inserted
Ishmael's name.

As a result of this and Muhammad's vision, the faithful Muslims built
a mosque, the Dome of the Rock, in Ishmael's honor on the site of the Jewish temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. This made
Jerusalem the 3rd most holy place in the Islam faith. How could they
give such a sacred shrine to the pope without causing a revolt? The pope realized what they had created was out of control when he heard they were calling "His Holiness" an infidel.

The Muslim generals were determined to conquer the world for Allah and now they turned toward Europe. Islamic ambassadors
approached the pope and asked for papal bulls to give them permission to invade European countries. The Vatican was outraged; war was inevitable. Temporal power and control of the world was considered the basic right of the pope. He wouldn't think of sharing it with those whom he considered heathens.

The pope raised up his armies and called them crusades to hold back the children of Ishmael from grabbing Catholic Europe. The crusades lasted centuries and Jerusalem slipped out of the pope's hands. Turkey fell and Spain and Portugal were invaded by Islamic
forces. In Portugal, they called a mountain village "Fatima", in
honor of Muhammad's daughter, never dreaming it would become
world famous.

Years later when the Muslim armies were poised on the islands of
Sardinia and Corsica, to invade Italy, there was a serious problem.
The Islamic generals realized they were too far extended. It was time for peace talks. One of the negotiators was Francis of Assisi. As a result, the Muslims were allowed to occupy Turkey in a "Christian" world, and the Catholics were allowed to occupy
Lebanon in the Arab world. It was also agreed that the Muslims could build mosques in Catholic countries without interference as long as Roman Catholicism could flourish in Arab countries.""

<~ not written by me (:=

[cbychoice]

http://watch-unto-prayer.org/default.html

This site is a good fit for the Tin-Foil hat.

[Ron Mexico]

It was also agreed that the Muslims could build mosques in Catholic countries without interference as long as Roman Catholicism could flourish in Arab countries.""

<~ not written by me (:=

That would explain all those huge cathedrals in Saudi Arabia and Yemen.

[flipflop]

Mohammed and the Vatican Popes

That's it!!! The name I've been looking for my new band, kerr-changgggg

Cheers

[Captain_Solo]

Wow, that is really laughable. Whoever wrote that must really had a lot of crack and spare time to devise the ultimate Catholic conspiracy: Islam.

Much of this information came from Alberto Rivera, former Jesuit
priest after his conversion to Christianity. It is excerpted from "The
Prophet," published by Chick Publications, PO Box 662, Chino CA 91708.

That is right next door to the home of David Koresh and Jim Jones in the apartment for cult-wackos who scam gulliable people of their lifesavings and then tell them to commit mass suicide in order to bring the Millenium Region of Christ.

Before this time, Augustine became the bishop of North Africa and was effective in winning Arabs to Roman Catholicism, including whole tribes. It was among these Arab converts to Catholicism that the concept of looking for an Arab prophet developed.

Augustine lived in North Africa which had not yet adopted the Arabic language and thus they were not Arabs. But let us not let history get in the way of things...

The Vatican desperately wanted Jerusalem because of its religious significance, but was blocked by the Jews. Another problem was the true Christians in North Africa who preached the gospel. Roman Catholicism was growing in power, but would not tolerate opposition.

I believe Jerusalem passed back and forth between the Christian Byzatines and the Zoroasterian Persians, not the Jews.

In the Vatican briefing, Cardinal Bea told us this story: A wealthy Arabian lady who was a faithful follower of the pope played a tremendous part in this drama. She was a widow named Khadijah. She gave her wealth to the church and retired to a convent, but was given an assignment. She was to find a brilliant young man who could be used by the Vatican to create a new religion and become the messiah for the children of Ishmael. Khadijah had a cousin named Waraquah,, who was also a very faithful Roman Catholic and the Vatican placed him in a critical role as Muhammad's advisor. He had tremendous influence on Muhammad. Teachers were sent to young Muhammad and he had intensive training.

Khadijah wasn't a Roman Catholic, nor was Waraquah. Waraquah was a Christian (until his conversion to Islam), though of Nestorian persuian (thus a "heretic" to the Catholics).

Muhammad studied the works of St. Augustine which prepared him for his "great calling." The Vatican had Catholic Arabs across North Africa spread the story of a great one who was about to rise up among the people and be the chosen one of their God.

There wasn't any Arabs in North Africa to await an Arab prophet. And Muhammad (peace be upon him) was illiterate and certain didn't read Augustine (who wasn't translated into Arabic in the first place, but only in Latin).

In the fifth year of Muhammad's mission, persecution came against his followers because they refused to worship the idols in the Kaaba. Muhammad instructed some of them to flee to Abysinnia where Negus, the Roman Catholic king, accepted them because Muhammad's views on the virgin Mary were so close to Roman Catholic doctrine. These Muslims received protection from Catholic kings because of Muhammad's revelations.

Ethiopia is related to the Eastern Orthodox and not the Roman Catholics. Again history is ignored.

By the time Muhammad died, the religion of Islam was exploding. The nomadic Arab tribes were joining forces in the name of Allah and his prophet, Muhammad. Some of Muhammad's writings were placed in the Koran, others were never published. They are now in the hands of high ranking holy men (Ayatollahs) in the Islamic faith. When Cardinal Bea shared with us in the Vatican, he said, These writings are guarded because they contain information that links the Vatican to the creation of Islam. Both sides have so much information on each other, that if exposed, it could create such a scandal that it would be a disaster for both religions.

Ayatollahs are only found among the Shi'ites which are only 10% of Muslims. The Sunni's don't have Ayatollahs. The author was probably just trying to work Khomeini and the Iranian Revolution into his bullshit book.

In their "holy" book, the Koran, Christ is regarded as only a prophet. If the pope was His representative on earth, then he also must be a prophet of God. This caused the followers of Muhammad
to fear and respect the pope as another "holy man."

The Pope is never mentioned in the Qur'an and has no special regard by the Muslims.

The pope moved quickly and issued bulls granting the Arab generals permission to invade and conquer the nations of North
Africa. The Vatican helped to finance the building of these
massive Islamic armies in exchange for three favors:

Eliminate the Jews and Christians (true believers, which they called
infidels).

That is why the Jews and non-Catholic Christians were wipped out of Spain, North Africa, Egypt, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Iran. Oh wait a minute, they weren't. Damn historical facts, always getting in the way.

It was also agreed that the Muslims could build mosques in Catholic countries without interference as long as Roman Catholicism could flourish in Arab countries.

That is why so many historical mosques and native Muslims remain in Spain and Portugal to this day... (end of sarcasm) What a dipshit!

[yorick]

And in defense of that dipshit California Jesuit Dr. Alberto Rivera who writes for Chick Publications, notorious for perpetrating hokey spiritual scams:

>>>Augustine lived in North Africa which had not yet adopted the Arabic language and thus they were not Arabs.

Common mistake of "historians" is identifying ethnic/racial groups by linguistics alone. Its kinda like saying Black Americans are NOT an Africa based ethnic group with African foundations because none can speak any African languages.

>>>"The Vatican desperately wanted Jerusalem because of its religious significance, but was blocked by the Jews."......I believe Jerusalem passed back and forth between the Christian Byzatines and the Zoroasterian Persians, not the Jews.

Then Jews had no voice in running the place at time of the crucifixion? Otherwise it was about 200-300AD when Roman Catholic corporation formed and seems likely there was strong Jewish political presence at Jerusalem then as well. Especially with Roman census takers *always* identifying births of inhabitants at the area as "Jews" according to their records. And yes, Romans kept impeccable records on crop harvests, industrial output and population statistics at areas under Roman governance.

>>>"The Vatican had Catholic Arabs across North Africa spread the story of a great one who was about to rise up among the people and be the chosen one of their God"....... Muhammad (peace be upon him) was illiterate and certain didn't read Augustine (who wasn't translated into Arabic in the first place, but only in Latin).

More likely the word was spread verbally than by sending out published and printed flyers. Remember they had a couple hundred years to do so before recruiting Mohamed to author his own "prophet of god" story.

>>>"Abysinnia where Negus, the Roman Catholic king, accepted them because Muhammad's views on the virgin Mary were so close to Roman Catholic doctrine."........Ethiopia is related to the Eastern Orthodox and not the Roman Catholics.

And when did the scism between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholicism occur? Could Roman Catholics have claimed Negus as one of their own?

>>>That is why the Jews and non-Catholic Christians were wipped out of Spain, North Africa, Egypt, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Iran. Oh wait a minute, they weren't.

Others might argue that this period in history marked Northern migration of Jews, pushed by Roman Catholics and Arabs, into what is now Europe.

Solo, its great to meet somebody who takes an interest in unravelling religious politics, fabrications and lies of the Roman Catholic Church. Not saying I agree entirely with this "Mohammed and the Vatican Popes" conspiracy theory, but it provides excellent food for thought.


(:=

[Ron Mexico]

And when did the scism between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholicism occur? Could Roman Catholics have claimed Negus as one of their own?
(:=

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is different and not in communion with the Russian and Greek Orthodox churches. They believe in Monophysitism which is a heresy that originated from the 5th century, so they were excommunicated before the time of Mohammed.

[Captain_Solo]

Common mistake of "historians" is identifying ethnic/racial groups by linguistics alone. Its kinda like saying Black Americans are NOT an Africa based ethnic group with African foundations because none can speak any African languages.

Umm, Arabs are a lingustic group and not a race. For example you have black Africans in the Sudan and parts of Somalia that speak Arabic (and are considered Arabs) and white-skinned people in Syria and Lebanon that speak Arabic (and are considered Arabs). If you have no history of speaking Arabic (like pre-Islamic North Africa) you can't be considered Arabs.

Then Jews had no voice in running the place at time of the crucifixion? Otherwise it was about 200-300AD when Roman Catholic corporation formed and seems likely there was strong Jewish political presence at Jerusalem then as well. Especially with Roman census takers *always* identifying births of inhabitants at the area as "Jews" according to their records. And yes, Romans kept impeccable records on crop harvests, industrial output and population statistics at areas under Roman governance.

The statement said that the Jews prevented the Roman Catholic church from taking Palestine. I demonstrated it to be false. What does the crucification have to do with it? Jewish political power in Palestine ended when Trajan crushed the Jewish rebellion, burned the second Temple, and banned the Jews from Jerusalem. Go read Josephus.

More likely the word was spread verbally than by sending out published and printed flyers. Remember they had a couple hundred years to do so before recruiting Mohamed to author his own "prophet of god" story.

Yet their is no historical evidence for this. Mere speculation here is as meaningless as speculation about little green men on Mars. If you read what Augustine wrote (which I have and I'm assuming you haven't) and what the Qur'an says (which I have and again I'm assuming you haven't) their is nothing in common. Augustine's big ideas were Original Sin and redemption through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and his being the "Son of God", etc. The Qur'an is against every one of these beliefs in the most adamant sense possible.

And when did the scism between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholicism occur? Could Roman Catholics have claimed Negus as one of their own?

Long before Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the Ethiopian Church developed autonomously from the Roman Catholic church.

Others might argue that this period in history marked Northern migration of Jews, pushed by Roman Catholics and Arabs, into what is now Europe.

The Arabs didn't push the Jews into Europe. In fact Jews fled Europe to places like Muslim Spain, Morocco, and Turkey.

Solo, its great to meet somebody who takes an interest in unravelling religious politics, fabrications and lies of the Roman Catholic Church. Not saying I agree entirely with this "Mohammed and the Vatican Popes" conspiracy theory, but it provides excellent food for thought.

It most certainly is not. This piece of shit article had no more "thought" put into it than a baby wipping his shit on the wall. I'm assuming you are just playing devils advocate, in which case you are wasting your time with stuff even National Enquirer won't print. If on the other hand you truely believe that load of easily-refutable crap than I feel sorry for you.

[yorick]

>>>I'm assuming you are just playing devils advocate, in which case you are wasting your time with stuff even National Enquirer won't print.

Thank you very much, but I'd rather judge for myself how my time is spent. Am always playing both sides against the middle, you understand, its the only way to arrive at any sort of philosophical conclusion.

>>>If on the other hand you truely believe that load of easily-refutable crap than I feel sorry for you.

Actually the ones who need our pity are the religious fundies of *any* faith corrupted over centuries through graft and political manipulation to the degree that it more closely resembles its own concept of "evil" than it does the progressive liberation of spiritual consciousness.

And in case you havent noticed - Abrahamics are rivalling each other these days seeking to compete at determining which more closely resembles and portrays the Anti-Christ concept than does the other.

Its a very close race with traditional mystic/scholars of western tradition saying the Catholic Church is and has always been the most evil influence on the planet. Yet suddenly Judaism has forclosed on Catholic holdings and seized alot of the power traditionally held by the Roman Catholic Church. And meanwhile Islam is demonstrating its own show of strength with potential to really fuck the place up by adding its own catalyst to the stew.

Yes, the idea of 3 Abrahamic Faiths appearing to be hell-bent on destruction of the planet should provide entertainment and generate interest among everybody. Representatives of each, Bishops and Rabbis and Mullahs and Ayatollahs ought to sit down at the table and discuss their own widely misunderstood "end of the world" prophesies and compare measures that each has taken on behalf of stimulating Armageddon. And such meetings should be broadcast worldwide, held on regular basis under UN Auspices with conference locations rotating across the globe.

Dont misunderstand me, I like organized religions that seek global dominion and Abrahamic Faiths are among my favorites because they are the most decadent and outspoken.

This editorial on "Mohammed and the Vatican Popes" is perfect for this respectable forum - The Tin Hat Cafe. Thank you for contributing your own research endeavors to this thread.


(:=

[Captain_Solo]

Thank you very much, but I'd rather judge for myself how my time is spent. Am always playing both sides against the middle, you understand, its the only way to arrive at any sort of philosophical conclusion.

That is a sloppy and dishonest position. Like the Hegelian dialectic on crack or something. Anyways I can understand arguing that Muhammad (peace by upon him) "made up" Islam (which I don't believe), but to argue that the Roman Catholic church engineered the whole thing shows a complete disregard for historical evidence and in fact boarders on schizophrenia.

This editorial on "Mohammed and the Vatican Popes" is perfect for this respectable forum - The Tin Hat Cafe. Thank you for contributing your own research endeavors to this thread.

I agree with the first sentence. But for the record I never "researched" anything for this thread. I just used common knowledge history to refute the idiotic claims that it made. This "Alberto Rivera" must be some relative of Geraldo Rivera as they are both experts in making up bullshit.

[yorick]

>>>>That is a sloppy and dishonest position.

Plato and Descartes would disagree with you.

>>>This "Alberto Rivera" must be some relative of Geraldo Rivera

A Jesuit priest blackballed from becoming a bishop. And something you might understand is that Bishops themselves are as independent as windmills, hating even the presence of each other. That's why the Catholic Church sustains a College of Cardinals - but such gathering of Bishops occurs rarely if at all, as far as i know.

>>>>>common knowledge history

Even from 1500 yrs ago? Weird thing about history is unless its documented with clinical precision then it merely editorializes the observations of whoever writes it, and then it generally gets rewritten throughout the ages.

For example, History records George Washington to have been a great American President. But the truth is he suffered syphillis and accepted the office against his own will. Then his signature/approval was treated as rubber stamp so that others could form a more perfect government.

Bottom line: We will never know what influence Vatican Popes weilded upon Islam, or if they contributed any influence at all. But it would be just plain stupid to assume the Vatican in Rome did not take a deliberate and direct interest in emerging prophets and the faiths they proposed at that time. Albeit that Roman Catholicism was simultaneously rewriting and rehashing previous systems such as Mithraism and incorporating the works of Appolonius of Tyanna into its dogma.

And thats the question which makes this thread interesting. To what degree can we understand exactly how modern day systems of religion came into being?

Presently there's high-fallutin think tank operations studying exactly how Islam fits into the picture. Am hoping in some small way this discussion helps debunk fundie myths in camps of ALL Abrahamic Faiths and thus prevent spiritual 3-party civil war from effecting the western world.

Rarely do we get this quality of discussion here in the THC, thanks again for contributing your time.


(:=

[Captain_Solo]

We will never know what influence Vatican Popes weilded upon Islam

We already do. They welded no influence on the development of Islam. The Roman Catholic church had no presence in the Arabian penesula. Most Arabs were pagans or Jews. The few Christians in the Arabian penesula were from heretical sects persecuted by the "orthodox" Christians.

But it would be just plain stupid to assume the Vatican in Rome did not take a deliberate and direct interest in emerging prophets and the faiths they proposed at that time.

The interest they took was to hunt them down and burn them on stakes, i.e. the Arians and Cathars.

This article, which you seem to be defending, makes outrageous claims and provides not a shred of empirical or historical evidence to back up the claims and in fact contains many outright lies and fabrications. Yet you are expecting me to take it seriously? Why should I regard this anymore than the story of a guy who was taken into a space ship by Martians and had his anus probed?

[yorick]

Sorry Captain, you lost me on this.... Cathars, Arians and Original Christians getting persecuted for the first 1,300 yrs of Catholicism. No doubt Essenes, Zoroastrians and Elleusinians too were pushed underground even in similar fashion by early Islam. But not a mention of relationship between Roman Catholicism and Islam being cognizant of each other at any level?

But wait, the time line you've established takes us into the Crusades and beyond. Must have been zero knowledge of Islam at Vatican in Rome for 500 yrs leading up to Holy Wars, eh?

On the one hand, you appear to agree that Romans weilded enforcement power over the Holy Lands and along the Mediterranean Rim up until about 500 AD. Yet on the other you insist the Church that survived the Empire had NO influence or contact with evolution/development of Islam...... I guess Mohamed must have sneaked up to the Dome of the Rock unnoticed.

As I've said, we will never know...... unless the Catholic Church throws open the doors of the Vatican Library to accomodate layman's research on what really occurred during the first 800 yrs of its establishment. And hell will freeze over before that happens.

Meanwhile you're picking apart Rivera's shabby story without considering tangent unanswered questions that it raises. Damnit, i aint sayin the Vatican schooled and installed Mohammed or that Islam is identical in its foundation to the emergence of Christianity or Catholicism, even forced by the same. Yet its interesting to consider parallels at the operative level between the two, especially when we consider problems that Catholicism had with diverse factions spawned from within its own ranks.

And now is an excellent time to reconnoitre how diverse sects within Islam might discover tolerance of each other. The western model of Christian Churches breaking from mainstream Catholicism should be considered *invaluable* for think-tank studies along this line.

Was hoping to see this thread bent in that direction, delving into philosophy. Yet now see I've entirely misjudged you as somebody who might make that leap.

(:=

_________________________

Captain_Solo: That is right next door to the home of David Koresh and Jim Jones in the apartment for cult-wackos..... no more "thought" put into it than a baby wipping his shit on the wall..... a complete disregard for historical evidence and in fact boarders on schizophrenia..... taken into a space ship by Martians and had his anus probed.

Yorick: How old are you?? Sounds like you're stuck on 7 years.

[Captain_Solo]

In the light of the fact there is not a shred of evidence to back up the outragous claims your article I am not required to take it in the least bit seriously. Just because someone could conjure up some theory in his mind doesn't make it true. Some on at one point conjured up the theory that the earth is hallow and aliens or "gods" live in there. Doesn't make in true or even plasuble. Your are failing to realize that the one thing that makes an argument defendable is evidence. This Rivera doesn't have any and to make matters worse for him real historical evidence contradicts him at every turn.

Captain_Solo: That is right next door to the home of David Koresh and Jim Jones in the apartment for cult-wackos..... no more "thought" put into it than a baby wipping his shit on the wall..... a complete disregard for historical evidence and in fact boarders on schizophrenia..... taken into a space ship by Martians and had his anus probed.

Great compilation. Maybe I should compose "A Best of Captain_Solo BFC Quotes", sounds like a New York Times bestseller. What do you think?

Yorick: How old are you?? Sounds like you're stuck on 7 years.

Ad hominem attacks don't help your argument (or lack there of).