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Do you support the Ban of Michael Moores film in the USA ?

yes
5
14%
no
32
86%
 
Total votes : 37

Postby Dim » Wed May 26, 2004 9:49 pm

His producers are Jewish with heavy Bush interests


Actually Moores producers are the Weinsteins - close friends of the Clintons and two of the most prominent Democratic fund-raisers in America.

The film hasn't been banned because it's not against the law to show it. Likewise, while Harper-Collins refused to print Moores book, it wasn't a criminal offense to own or distribute it, and that's what banned means. Lolita was banned in the US - if you owned a copy you could be fined or sent to prison. The Kubrick film Clockwork Orange was banned in the UK - it was illegal to screen it. Disney and Harper-Collins are well within their legal rights to choose not to distribute the film.

If I owned a publishing company and one of my authors wanted me to publish a book claiming the holocaust never I occured I'd refuse. Is that censorship? No - it's my imaginary company and I'm not under any obligation to print material I find offensive. Disney are in the same position.
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Ha

Postby ROB » Wed May 26, 2004 10:40 pm

Defending the integrity of "Bowling for Colombine"? I hope you got a lot of time on your hands Patriot.
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Postby CdnSkyDiva » Wed May 26, 2004 10:51 pm

What the hell is wrong with (most) of you people? Why do you have such a hate-on for Michael Moore? If you don't like him, ignore him - isn't that the American way??

A lot of you just blow me away with your irresponsible commentaries. As far as Moore being a liar, the only 'proof' I have yet to see from anyone on this board that 'May' support these claims is from other equally controversial authors/sources. Have you even bothered to research your own claims? Have you ever investigated the reliability of YOUR OWN "Facts"? Now maybe this will be difficult for some of you to understand, but believe it or not, Google isn't always a reliable fact finding resource.

As far as the content in this movie, have any of you even seen the movie before you started knocking the reliability of the content? A lot of you are basing your opinions on second hand information, when only a handful of people have actually seen the film (and we all know what a dependable news source movie critics are).

Not too mention my now favourite name tag "Propoganda machine" - Are you for real??? Have you listened to your President lately? Rumsfeld? Cheney? Rice? Michael Eisner? Rosie O'Donell? Madonna? CNN? and so on, and so on.... Anytime someone has any kind of an agenda, it can be perceived as propoganda - it all depends on your perspective. Bush sold you WMD to justify the war, Moore says he was ripped off by Disney - and who's the criminal? Has his accusations killed anyone? Has anyone died because of his "outrageous" claim? No. So why are you bashing him, and not the one peson in your country who clearly has blood on his hands?

For many of you, I really don't understand your logic but I have no doubt after this commentary, you'll try to enlighten me...
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Postby Aegis » Wed May 26, 2004 11:01 pm

Ok, I assume the
the only 'proof' I have yet to see from anyone on this board that 'May' support these claims is from other equally controversial authors/sources.


part is aimed at me. Regardless of what you have to say about the artical I posted (which comes originally from Salon.com, not exactly a conservative haven) the author brings up several points wherein Mr. Moore appears to be guilty of falsely attributing statistics.

Unless you can find a flaw in their research, I don't see yor point

And sure, I saw Bowling for Columbine (what, it doesn't come GI issue at YOUR college campus?). I found it interesting that he felt that the best way to get a conversation out of Dick Clarke was to bum rush him on his way to his car.


BTW: One of the things I like about Canada is that I wish WE could get this election crap out of the way in a month, instead of having the year-long bitchfest we have down here in the states.
Last edited by Aegis on Wed May 26, 2004 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Oh Jeese

Postby ROB » Wed May 26, 2004 11:07 pm

Bowling for Columbine has been factually discredited by so many different sources that I really didn't think I had to do it again.

The reason I am pissed so much is cos I DID SEE THE FILM and initially thought it was pretty good until I realised I had been duped and lied to.
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Postby patriot » Wed May 26, 2004 11:23 pm

Bowling for Columbine has been factually discredited by so many different sources that I really didn't think I had to do it again.

The reason I am pissed so much is cos I DID SEE THE FILM and initially thought it was pretty good until I realised I had been duped and lied to.


Proove it.

I found it interesting that he felt that the best way to get a conversation out of Dick Clarke was to bum rush him on his way to his car.


Look we all know that Moore can be an ass-hole, but then again so can everybody on the planet. But I found his interview with Heston quite unbecoming of a man who supposedly is representing the left. In my personal opinion I think Heston is the perfect man to head up the NRA, he is a very stoic, well-spoken, responsible American, but like all human beings do, he made a mistake by showing up at the Columbine massacre, and then the shooting at Buel Elementary. And Moore, in very bad taste, decided to grill Heston, and then wave a photo of the dead girl in his face (which is one thing that really pisses me off about some of the left, showing pics of the dead to try and gain symptathy). I felt Heston was being very polite when he offered to do an interview with Moore, and personally I thought Moore would return that kindness...obviously he did not. But this does not mean that Moore hasn't got a damn point people. Something has to be done about the hand-gun epidemic that is taking the lives of over 11,000 Americans every year. Moore thinks it's a problem, and anyone with some common sense would agree. Moore uses his contreversy to get people to listen to what he has to say, just like Heston used the contreversy of Columbine to get his message out.
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Postby CdnSkyDiva » Thu May 27, 2004 1:21 am

Oh, Aegis...

Need I remind you? When you Assume you make an ASS out of U and me....

My entire post was in reference to Farenheit 911, the topic of this poll. And I wasn't pointing the finger at anyone specifically, because from my perspective, a lot of the posts seem to blend into one.
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Postby Dim » Thu May 27, 2004 2:17 am

Spinsanity has the best debunk of Bowling for Columbine

http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20021119.html
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Postby el3so » Thu May 27, 2004 10:36 am

Dim wrote: The film hasn't been banned because it's not against the law to show it.
Lolita was banned in the US - if you owned a copy you could be fined or sent to prison. The Kubrick film Clockwork Orange was banned in the UK - it was illegal to screen it.
Dim, when you say "was" does that mean I still can't bring Nabokov's novel with me to the States?

Actually I enjoyed both examples of banned stuff and honestly don't understand why they should be illegal. Both are considered classics in my country.
Dim wrote: If I owned a publishing company and one of my authors wanted me to publish a book claiming the holocaust never I occured I'd refuse. Is that censorship? No - it's my imaginary company and I'm not under any obligation to print material I find offensive.
Even if you would publish it, I'd consider getting an imaginary lawyer ;-)

"Inciting people to violence" and "denial of the holocaust" are the only (remaining) reasons to ban works of art in Belgium re: the constitutional right of voicing an opinion. Both make sense in my book at least...

Snuff movies (if those really exist) and kiddie porn are also illegal but only because to make them you have to commit a crime (different set of rules, different courts).
This town's leadership doesn't understand that we can compromise with these savage, merciless bisexual rapist-killers.
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Postby Qwazy Wabbit » Thu May 27, 2004 11:21 am

There's a big big difference between a 'free society' and a 'free market'. You think your liberties can be protected by corporations? They're only interested in your money.

On the basis of your arguement, the film will be shown if the economic demand to see the film outweights the financial incentives (tax breaks) the Bush Family can offer to ban it. If you're an Oscar-winning film maker you may have a chance but the Bush Family and all the other corrupt plutocrats running the US will have a massive advantage when it comes to silencing their critics.

Particularly ironic is that by offering tax-break they are suppressing your right to information (because it's critical of them) with your own money.

Things must be pretty lame in the 'Land of the Free' these days if a President can so overtly try and use corrupt corporate kick-backs to silence his critics and citizens like yourself think that your liberties will be protected by market forces.
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Postby ROB » Thu May 27, 2004 12:39 pm

patriot wrote:
Bowling for Columbine has been factually discredited by so many different sources that I really didn't think I had to do it again.

The reason I am pissed so much is cos I DID SEE THE FILM and initially thought it was pretty good until I realised I had been duped and lied to.


Proove it.



You want me to provide ticket stubs?


Follow Dim's link to see one of the many factual discreditings of the movie. The fact that you haven't read even one says more about what you choose to read than anything.
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I assume you're talking to me

Postby Skirita » Thu May 27, 2004 2:13 pm

There's a big big difference between a 'free society' and a 'free market'. You think your liberties can be protected by corporations?


Is there really? Care to do more to substantiate this claim than throw out rhetorical catch phrases? You know, I love the way people throw around words like "corporation" like they're controlled by evil robots. People run the fucking things. Shareholders. Thousands of people. Little old ladies who've invested their live savings run Disney, because they elect the officers that make the big decisions. If the officers feel that distributing a Moore film will piss off their shareholders and consumers, then it is in BOTH their best interest and, more importantly, the best interest of the entire company (including its 100,000 employees) to choose not to. If you don't like Disney's policies, don't buy their products. If enough people cared about Moore's fat ass they'd boycott Disney. They don't. Everyone likes to bitch about big bad corporations but the next minute they hand them their hard-earned dollars and justify their actions with conspiracy theories.

They're only interested in your money.


So I suppose that Michael Moore isn't interested in my money? If that was the case, he'd be using the profits from Bowling for Columbine, Roger & Me, and his books to distribute it himself. Or he'd put it online for free or nominal subscription. And surely he'd be donating ALL his profits to the poor innocent insurgents at Abu Ghraib, right?

Mr. Moore is just as much a "war profiteer" as you allege the big scary Bush clan to be...

On the basis of your arguement, the film will be shown if the economic demand to see the film outweights the financial incentives (tax breaks) the Bush Family can offer to ban it.


Point me to the legislation that President Bush (or Governer Bush in Florida.. take your pick) personally authorized last month specifically in response to Michael Moore and specifically created to give Disney tax breaks in exchange for banning Michael Moore films.

If you're an Oscar-winning film maker you may have a chance but the Bush Family and all the other corrupt plutocrats running the US will have a massive advantage when it comes to silencing their critics.


Umm.. Michael Moore is an Oscar-winning film maker.

Particularly ironic is that by offering tax-break they are suppressing your right to information (because it's critical of them) with your own money.


Again, what new tax break are you talking about? Point me to it on the public record... oh, wait, of course.. it's a SECRET tax break that somehow magically won't appear on Disney's accounting records. But they would, of course, tell Michael Moore about it because they know he can keep a secret. And then, knowing full well that investigative journos will be combing through the books looking for proof, Disney would still jeopardize its entire $55 billion+ operation to please one sitting governor and save a few million. Now it all makes sense.

Things must be pretty lame in the 'Land of the Free' these days if a President can so overtly try and use corrupt corporate kick-backs to silence his critics and citizens like yourself think that your liberties will be protected by market forces.


I'm still waiting on links to that Miramax-only tax break you keep talking about. The only links I can find are allegations by Michael Fucking Moore himself. Moore claims that is why Miramax won't distribute it, but can offer zero evidence other than "that's what their agent told my agent". Yeah, ok Mike, now you be quiet now and have another box of Krispy Kreme. It's part of his own goddamned conspiracy theory!

You know, so many people call President Bush "stupid", "dumb", "illiterate", a "moron", a "cowboy", etc., yet he has somehow managed to mastermind more absurdly complex worldwide conspiracies than the Illuminati. Exactly how does that work?
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Postby CdnSkyDiva » Thu May 27, 2004 4:25 pm

You know, I love the way people throw around words like "corporation" like they're controlled by evil robots. People run the fucking things. Shareholders. Thousands of people.


I STRONGLY recommemmend you see the documentary "The Corporation" or read the book it's based on by Joel Bakan, I think you'll find it to be quite an eyeopener.

http://www.thecorporation.com/

You know, so many people call President Bush "stupid", "dumb", "illiterate", a "moron", a "cowboy", etc., yet he has somehow managed to mastermind more absurdly complex worldwide conspiracies than the Illuminati. Exactly how does that work?


Do you really think Bush is doing any thinking all by himself??? He has his minions, those from the Reagan/DaddyBush era telling him what to do. I'm sorry, but with some of th remarks Bush has made over the years - are you really that surprised people consider him a little slow??? http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushisms.htm
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Postby Buzzsaw » Thu May 27, 2004 4:32 pm

Why didn't you provide any evidence? Is it because there isn't any? Or is that secret too?
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Postby RYP » Thu May 27, 2004 4:42 pm

The Moore Smack Down...

So which is worse a politician corporation who lies to hide the truth to protect people or a filmmaker who uses lies to tell the truth to damage people?

Moore is a comedian who fancies himself a social reformer. He really doesn't care what he has to invent to make himself wealthy or famous.

If you are a Michael Moore Fan...read this and then get back to me on why Moore needs to be viewed with the same disdain he wants you to view his corporate/government victims...

Bowling for Truth
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/

MooreWatch
- http://www.moorewatch.com (contains OVER 300 articles)

Moore Exposed
- http://www.mooreexposed.com

Moore LIES
- http://www.moorelies.com

Michael Moore Hates America
- http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com

Here are more links that provide a little more insight on his tactics and truths on just one film....

Scene-Specific Information:

• What the Littleton LHM-plant REALLY does:
Michael W. Phillips, Jr.:
- http://www.geocities.com/evil_spoon/art ... ckheed.htm

• What Heston REALLY said in his "Hoya" interview:
Tim Sullivan, “The Hoya”:
- http://www.thehoya.com/news/033100/news3.htm

• What the "48 Hours" line REALLY said:
Archive of “48 Hours” page (via archive.org):
- http://www.nrahq.org/administration/pub ... cle2.shtml


• Heston's ACTUAL speech:
David Hardy, Former Lawyer for the Interior-Department:
- http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html (side-by-side comparison)
Worldnetdaily.com:
- http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=16127

• What the "Willie Horton" ad(s) REALLY looked like:
American Museum of Moving Image:
- http://www.ammi.org/cgi-bin/video/years.cgi?1988,15,ss,, ("Revolving-Door Prison" ad)
- http://www.ammi.org/cgi-bin/video/years.cgi?1988,17,ss,, ("Willie Horton" ad)

• The ACTUAL gun statistics:
FBI, "Nationmaster", "GunCite", and Bureau of Justice:
- http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/01cius.htm
- http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_wit_fir
- http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_wit_fir_cap
- http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html
- http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/hvfsdaft.txt

• Heston is NOT a racist:
Henry Levy, "Jewish Post of New York": (Heston wins CORE's "MLK Jr." award)
- http://www.jewishpost.com/jp0703/jpbr0703a.htm
"Montgomery Citizens":
- http://www.mcsm.org/hestonMLK.html
"HestFest": (some of Heston's Civil-Rights achievements):
- http://marhew.tripod.com/hestfest/id3.html



Debunkings of BFC-Defenses



• "Wacko Attacko" by Michael Moore:
- http://www.hardylaw.net/replytomoore.html
- http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingf ... ttacko.htm
- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0310793/boa ... 49#3501949

• "A Defense of Michael Moore" by Erik Moller
- http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/8/12/171427/607
Debunking (by imboredisux):
- http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0601619/board/nest/3465045

• "The Truth About 'Truth About Bowling for Columbine'" by Tim Dudley
- http://www.bigsugar.wrestling-fan.com/t ... wling.html
Debunking (by imboredisux):
- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0310793/board/nest/4338868

• The often heard "If He's Lying, why hasn't he been sued?" argument:
((Note: He IS being sued.))
Debunking (by imboredisux):
- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0310793/boa ... 17#3638617



BFC/Moore Bits



• Moore invites victims' families to "preview screening", then charges admission:
Ann M. Ketcher, letter to "Rocky Mountain News":
- http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/o ... 75,00.html

• Moore deceives Academy on purely technical grounds:
Joseph Farah, "Worldnetdaily.com":
- http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=34367


Moore (famous for filming people without consent) files a complaint against a man for filming MOORE without consent:
John Tierney, "The New York Times":
- http://www.nytimes.com/library/national ... erney.html


• "Michael Moore Enjoying Corporate High-Life"
Carl Limbacher and "Newsmax.com" staff:
- http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2003 ... 3730.shtml


• "Michael & Me"; Moore refuses to be interviewed about his alleged lying:
Joseph Farah, Worldnetdaily.com:
- http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=34397


• Moore is caught in a lie about how many media-appearances he made:
Tim Blair, "The Australian":
- http://timblair.blogspot.com/2002_12_01 ... l#85345233


• "Is Film-Maker Michael Moore a Bigot?"
Larry Elder, Author of "Showdown" and "The Ten Things You Can't Say in America":
- http://www.townhall.com/columnists/larr ... 0116.shtml


• Moore attempts to hide a statement he made:
Paul Boutin, "Wired" magazine and "Wired.com":
- http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,56524,00.html


• Interviews in which Moore evades criticism and double-talks:
Lou Dobbs, CNN’s “Moneyline with Lou Dobbs”:
- http://www.cnn.com/transcripts/0204/12/mlld.00.html

Buchanon and Press:
- http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/955443.asp?cp1=1
 
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