Governor closes loophole that let Cho get guns

[Chimborazo]

RICHMOND, Virginia (AP) -- Virginia Gov. Timothy M. Kaine said Monday he has closed the loophole that allowed a mentally disturbed Virginia Tech student to acquire the guns he used to kill 32 students and faculty members.

Kaine issued an executive order requiring that a database of people who are prohibited from buying guns include anyone found to be dangerous and ordered to undergo involuntary mental health treatment.

Seung-Hui Cho had been ordered by a court to undergo psychiatric counseling after a judge ruled that he was a danger to himself.

But because Cho was treated as an outpatient and never committed to a mental health hospital, the court finding never made it into the database that gun dealers must check before selling a firearm. The law prohibits selling firearms to people judged to have mental disabilities.

"Whether that treatment is to be provided in an inpatient or outpatient facility is of no moment," Kaine said.

Cho did not disclose his mental health problems or the court-ordered treatment in a form he completed before buying the guns.

"His lie on the form would have been caught," had the order been in place before Cho attempted to buy the guns, Kaine said.

But it would not prevent Cho from acquiring guns by several other means that require no background check in Virginia, including buy-and-trade publications, individual transactions among gun collectors or hobbyists, and gun shows -- vast firearms bazaars where scores of people sell or swap firearms.

Legislation that would also subject firearms sales at gun shows to instant background checks is introduced annually in Virginia, and just as often it dies without reaching a floor vote in the General Assembly.

Kaine, a Democrat, has said he expects new support for the legislation this year and that he would support it, as he has in the past.

The executive order does not apply to people who seek mental health care of their own will. After the report is added to Virginia's state police database, it becomes part of a federal database that gun dealers nationwide use.

Cho, a 23-year-old Virginia Tech senior described as a troubled loner, bought his guns legally through gun shops before gunning down 32 people on campus, then killing himself.

No motive has been established for his rampage.

Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

[Chimborazo]

Response from VCDL ( http://www.vcdl.org )

Earlier today, Governor Kaine signed an Executive Order (EO)
prohibiting another category of people from owning firearms. Kaine's
EO would take away gun rights for life of any person adjudicated
dangerous, but only ordered to be treated as an OUTPATIENT. (Anyone
who is committed as an inpatient currently loses their gun rights
already.)

So, what's the problem?

1. Kaine's action is probably unconstitutional! If Kaine can just
issue an Imperial Decree changing existing law without any debate
from our elected representatives, why not just disband the General
Assembly, if they aren't needed any more? :-(

The proper way to handle a situation like this is for the Governor to
call a special session of the General Assembly to address this issue
and ask the the General Assembly to modify the law.

2. His EO may appear to be a reasonable restriction because no one
wants a violent, insane person to have a gun or any other weapon for
that matter.

However, what judge in HIS right mind would allow a person who the
judge KNOWS to be a danger to himself or to others to be sent home
and allowed to do outpatient treatment?!? The judge should commit
himself to inpatient treatment for doing such a thing! That's like
sending serial murderer Jeffrey Dahmer back home but requiring him to
attend weekly counseling sessions!

If a person is adjudicated dangerous to himself or others, he should
be confined, NOT sent home!

So you might ask, why would there be ANY patients who were both
dangerous AND ordered to do outpatient treatments?

Because the judge might believe that the person isn't really
'dangerous,' but the judge feels that the person does desperately
need mental help and that the person wouldn't seek such help on his
own. So the judge declares the person to be 'dangerous' so that the
person can be forced to take the outpatient treatment.

Should a person who is not believed to be dangerous by a judge be
banned from having guns for the rest of his life?

3. The Governor's edict is retroactive! Thus, if you were treated as
an outpatient under a court order thirty years ago and have been fine
ever since, you can now no longer BUY, OWN, or POSSESS any firearms.
If you do you can be charged with a federal FELONY!

4. The Governor has falsely promised that gun rights could be
restored. NOT true. There is no way to get your name off the
federal list once Virginia has added you to it, even if you are now
perfectly normal. You will be prohibited by federal law from buying
or possessing a firearm for the rest of your life. And you may not
even realize you are a 'prohibited' person, so when you attempt to
purchase a firearm, you may be shocked when you are arrested for
lying on the 4473, which is a FELONY.

5. Once you are on the federal mental defect list, you could lose
more than your gun rights. Your security clearance could be at risk.
Your job too.

6. According to the Washington Post, Attorney General McDonnell said,
"We are still in a state of mourning, but now is the time for
action." What he's really saying is that he's got to do something,
anything, to make it look like the government is doing something.
Just another "feel good" measure - and one embraced by Governor Kaine!

And talk about rushing to do something - Kaine JUST APPOINTED a
commission to look at the mental health problem and make suggestions,
but Kaine didn't even wait for the commission to meet! He just
charged forward on his political hobbyhorse!

So how did we get into this situation?

Simple - the Court system failed us by not committing the VT murderer
to involuntary treatment. As if that wasn't bad enough, the Governor
comes along with a knee-jerk solution and compounds the problem by
throwing out a huge net to catch such a very rare person. That huge
net brings in all kinds of unintended consequences. And it still
won't guarantee more government failures that could lead to more
murders and mayhem down the road.

Lest you think I am exaggerating the negative impact that the
Governor's actions will have on those who need help, want help, and
are willing to seek help, I will share with you an email I just
received from one of our brave Armed Forces members.

I have left off the person's name for obvious reasons:

"I came back [from my tour of duty] last fall. I'm very worried that
getting advice, counseling, or treatment could have ramifications on
my ability to carry, own, and use firearms. I've been diagnosed with
"mild PTSD" [Post Traumatic Stress Disorder] and am very anxious that
treatment it is going to put me on some list. I believe I can handle
the PTSD, if necessary, but it'd be a whole lot easier if there
weren't that Sword of Damocles hanging over my head.

As it is, I'm treating myself based on information from public sources."

I'll be honest - that email tore me up. Just watching the news and
seeing what those men and women go through in protecting this county
is enough to give ME mild PTSD! I can't even imagine being at war
and living through all that our fighting men and women live through.
Yet we put them in a position of being afraid to seek a helping hand
in adjusting back to normal, peacetime life!

Is this what those who are suffering from emotional stress and
trauma, or have common things like depression, get to look forward
to? The additional worry of becoming a second-class citizen,
disarmed by their own government for seeking help?

And what about employment? Those in a position to lose their guns
unfairly will now also be in a position to lose their security
clearances unfairly, too.

For now, VCDL needs to investigate the whole situation and its
implications in more detail. I have been talking to the Attorney
General's Office, as well as to the aides of House Majority Leader
Morgan Griffith and Delegate John Welch.

Things like a temporary injunction come to mind, so that the law can
be changed carefully and not in a knee jerk reaction. Letting the
General Assembly change the law, if it needs changing at all, in a
constitutional way is a necessity, too. ;-)

This alert for now is just a 'heads up.' The implications of what is
happening could have grave consequences for a lot of innocent people
and we are going to be monitoring the situation carefully.

[JamesInTheWorld]

So if someone’s mom and dad hospitalized them for an eating disorder when they were 18 then they cant buy guns for the rest of their life, well ok

Being a tax paying lifelong Virginia resident I find the fact that a new sweeping law can “just be passed”. Don’t get me wrong, I agree with the law, just not the way it was enacted.




~JITW

[Chimborazo]

So if someone’s mom and dad hospitalized them for an eating disorder then they cant buy gins now, well ok

~JITW

Not sure. I think it has to be court ordered.

[JamesInTheWorld]

(sorry dude, let me clarify) If they were 18 or older then it would have to be court ordered

Also remember – this is a state that cant keep the DMV motor record database up during a thunderstorm (true story, ask any VA cop) so good luck with a new law that will require a 30 million dollar custom made highly secure database

Gee, I wonder where the money for that one will come from. Fuck, I am going to get a Nevada PO Box and change my residency


~JITW

[RYP]

Hey lets pass a law that makes it illegal for bad people to kill good people! And then ban guns so that only nice people can own little tiny guns that scare bad people away.

Why not force everyone to own guns and then when they charge out into the street foaming at the mouth and holdig their guns like Chuck Norris we can practice with all that ammo we have?

[WillyBlues]

Hey lets pass a law that makes it illegal for bad people to kill good people!

RYP I think we had that one but Moses got pissed and broke the tablets