While Europe Slept

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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby snaark » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:26 pm

M-A, there was a great article on life inside Paris' "Gheto's" on Australia's Dateline program a couple of months back. You can get the podcast here (warning: download is 150mb+):

http://podcasting.sbs.com.au/videopodcasts/2008-05-28_Dateline_Podcast.mp4

Note that nowhere in the article does anyone mention Islam.

You can't point at French migrants (or sons or grandsons of migrants as the case may be) who are pissed of about a whole plethora of issues and say: "look... they're burning cars... and they're muslims... thats radical Islam in action". It does not follow.

I've lived in Germany for a couple of years now, travelled widely in the continent, and I have friends from many countries. I'm baffled as to how anyone can think radical Islam is undermining anything in Europe.

No, I take that back, its definitely undermined the Wiener Schnitzel's hopes of ever becoming a greasy late night snack for shitfaced Germans.
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby flipflop » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:37 pm

Just a bit more about the Police v C4, this is the latest, the cops were wrong, and "Undercover Mosque" stands as an example of the filth being peddled by some fruitbat Imams in Britain's main, and supposedly moderate and inclusive, mosques:

On 15th May 2008 when the matter came to the High Court, West Midlands Police and the Crown Prosecution Service apologised to the makers of the documentary for accusing them of distortion and agreed to a payment of £100,000. The statement, released to the media by West Midlands Police, after the High Court hearing, said they now accepted there had been no evidence that Channel 4 or the documentary makers had "misled the audience or that the programme was likely to encourage or incite criminal activity".

It added that the Ofcom report showed the documentary had "accurately represented the material it had gathered and dealt with the subject matter responsibly and in context". The police statement concluded: "We accept, without reservation, the conclusions of Ofcom and apologise to the programme makers for the damage and distress caused by our original press release." The same statement was later posted on the Crown Prosecution Service website.

Kevin Sutcliffe, deputy head of current affairs at Channel 4, said the apology was a vindication of the programme team in exposing extreme views. "Channel 4 was fully aware of the sensitivities surrounding the subject matter but recognised the programme's findings were clearly a matter of important public interest. "The authorities should be doing all they can to encourage investigations like this, not attempting to publicly rubbish them for reasons they have never properly explained," he said. Channel 4 boss Julian Bellamy said they had had no choice but to pursue action when the police and CPS refused to withdraw their remarks.
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby nowonmai » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:52 pm

I've lived in Germany for a couple of years now, travelled widely in the continent, and I have friends from many countries. I'm baffled as to how anyone can think radical Islam is undermining anything in Europe.


Tit.
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby Slam » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:32 pm

An excellent book which helps understand radical Islam in Britain is The Islamist by Ed Husain.

He was brainwashed by Islamists and even started recruiting for them. After many years he started seeing through the bullshit and turned his back on them.

What's interesting is the amount of conflict between the various Islamist, Wahabbi and Salafi groups. They bitch as much about each other as they do the West.
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby marie-angelique » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:23 pm

thanks for the book recommendation slam, i'll check it out.

flipflop wrote:I personally disagree with faith schools, and this Labour government seems to love them. But they won't be around after the next election.


and these are paid for by the state, right?

over here you can choose to send your kids to religious schools, but you have to pay for the whole thing yourself. i would be appalled if my tax dollars were paying for religious education of any flavor.
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Postby el3so » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:51 pm

Slam wrote: What's interesting is the amount of conflict between the various Islamist, Wahabbi and Salafi groups. They bitch as much about each other as they do the West.

A bit like a non-commercialised version of teenage youth cultures then?

IMO the media just plays it up, depending on their cumstomer base, as either (yet another) re-invention of "the wild one" or "amistad". Papers to sell for people to read.

Part of me wishes I could still worry about, well, the Muselmen taking over, you know, dressing up our women in bags, banning pork&booze, going crazy with them curved swords...
Too bad my real life experiences lead me to believe they're just like the rest of us: 5% assholes, 5% good people and 90% scenery
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby flipflop » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:58 am

I read Ed Husain's book last year, a real eye-opener. The chapter on Saudi Arabia is disgusting.

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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby flipflop » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:11 am

marie-angelique wrote:thanks for the book recommendation slam, i'll check it out.

flipflop wrote:I personally disagree with faith schools, and this Labour government seems to love them. But they won't be around after the next election.


and these are paid for by the state, right?

over here you can choose to send your kids to religious schools, but you have to pay for the whole thing yourself. i would be appalled if my tax dollars were paying for religious education of any flavor.


They get funding from the government yes, many also have high educational standards. It's a national disgrace. And, if the example shown by the "Undercover Mosque" programme - which was carried out by one covert reporter in that hotbed of harmony and multi-culturalism: Birmingham and it's Green Lane mosque - is anything to go by, then some of the people associated with educating young muslims are very unsavoury characters indeed. Faith schools are wrong, should be abolished and ALL children in the UK should receive a secular education - if they want religion instruction then their parents can give it to them.

Cheers
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby marie-angelique » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:46 am

flipflop wrote:They get funding from the government yes, many also have high educational standards. It's a national disgrace. And, if the example shown by the "Undercover Mosque" programme - which was carried out by one covert reporter in that hotbed of harmony and multi-culturalism: Birmingham and it's Green Lane mosque - is anything to go by, then some of the people associated with educating young muslims are very unsavoury characters indeed. Faith schools are wrong, should be abolished and ALL children in the UK should receive a secular education - if they want religion instruction then their parents can give it to them.

Cheers

sorry to hear it. and of course if you are against it you get called a racist, right?
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby flipflop » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:45 am

Let me put it like this. I have two friends in Brighton, they are second generation Pakistanis whose parents are strict muslims. My friends are successful in their work and social lives, one of them too fooking successful ;-). They are secular, fun-loving guys, both of whom are fully aware of my job. Like me they love a beer, have gay friends and are pretty laissez faire towards recreational drug use among consenting adults. They are British and Asian and anyone who says anything different is a twat.

Their parents are British too, but remain emotionally and spiritually attached to Pakistan, and Islam. That's fine, I don't expect to turn Afghan now that I'm officially an expat in this country. The colour of someone's skin and their beliefs or lack of are of no concern to me - as long as they respect that Britain is a secular country where people are free to do as they wish, within reason. When people start abusing that principle then it's their fucked-up religious beliefs, and not their race, that get me angry.

How is that being racist? I may dislike Islam, I dislike Christianity and most other idiotic religious beliefs founded on no evidence whatsoever. It's not people but ideologies I have a problem with. But, there are certain people in our society, some even here, who believe I cannot criticise the things I find distasteful, and a popular accusation is "you're a racist" it used to be "fascist", and I've been called that here as well by we all know who just weeks ago.

I met and got to know many Iraqis, and now quite a few Afghans. I take people at face value, no race or belief system has a monopoly on being assholes. I dislike many aspects of both cultures, especially their adherence to particularly offensive (to me) brands of Islam. The people I meet are fine, good, bad, etc - just like home. There's even an old saying in Northern Ireland : "Never take an eejit with you anywhere you go, because you're sure to find one a soon as you get there."

I'm babbling now, but I hope you get a feeling of how I stand on race versus culture. Dickheads like the obvious one here will always level the "racist" card whenever they get a chance. I'm not racist, plain and simple.

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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby Penta » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:19 am

marie-angelique wrote:
flipflop wrote:They get funding from the government yes, many also have high educational standards. It's a national disgrace. And, if the example shown by the "Undercover Mosque" programme - which was carried out by one covert reporter in that hotbed of harmony and multi-culturalism: Birmingham and it's Green Lane mosque - is anything to go by, then some of the people associated with educating young muslims are very unsavoury characters indeed. Faith schools are wrong, should be abolished and ALL children in the UK should receive a secular education - if they want religion instruction then their parents can give it to them.

Cheers

sorry to hear it. and of course if you are against it you get called a racist, right?


No, he wouldn't. If he continued to support the numerous Christian schools in the system, while opposing a handful of Muslim schools (which is a discriminatory position held by many), then he probably would.
Shes never interfered with me. I have no complaints about her.
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby flipflop » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:05 am

I don't, ALL faith schools need to be either completely privatised or closed down.

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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby Penta » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:57 am

flipflop wrote:I don't, ALL faith schools need to be either completely privatised or closed down.

Cheers


Yes, I gathered that's what you think. We are in perfect agreement on this one. It's m-a who's a little hazy.

i am just curious what people think of the premise of this book. i already know what penta thinks [oh, yeah?] ... hope that some other voices chime in.


It seems that every European or European resident here, except nowonmai, disagrees with "the premise of the book" as described in the review she posted. As you would expect.
Shes never interfered with me. I have no complaints about her.
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby snaark » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:41 am

According to this article in the Economist, of the 140 Islamic schools in the UK, only 7 are state funded.

http://www.economist.com/world/britain/ ... id=7891293
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby flipflop » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:13 am

snaark wrote:According to this article in the Economist, of the 140 Islamic schools in the UK, only 7 are state funded.

http://www.economist.com/world/britain/ ... id=7891293


Ok, fair one, I didn't know it was as low as that, but it's still seven too many. And another point from that article shows things are going the wrong way:

After the London bombings in July 2005 the prime minister changed tack. He listened to voices within his own party, including that of a Muslim peer, Lady Uddin, who argued that it was hypocritical to support other faith schools while denying Muslims a free religious education within the state system. And official scrutiny should eradicate poor teaching and questionable political activities. Since then the number of Muslim state schools has increased and more await approval.


Labour, with arms twisted in the fallout of 7/7, and with a God-botherer as PM (Blair), bowed to the muslim lobby and more muslim state schools "await approval" To use the "well if we had them in state faith schools then we could watch the little blighters for any signs of radicalism" argument is political opportunism at it's most cynical, the clever bastards. Stories like this make me question the motives behind these lobbyists, and suspect theists even more. Religious campaigners of all hues, need to be watched - playing the victim is easy nowadays with so much political correctness flying about . I think today, more than any other time in history, any religious interference in public life should be frowned upon - if I sound like a militant atheist, then so be it.

I didn't know also that one third of the state schools were religious, almost all Christian of course. You learn something new everyday, eh? And if we have to put a stop to the state-sponsored filling of kids' heads with Islamic shite, then I guess we have to stop Christian shite being planted too at public expense.

Here endeth the sermon, and verily, Jesus wept

Cheers
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