While Europe Slept

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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby Penta » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:23 am

flipflop wrote:I didn't know also that one third of the state schools were religious, almost all Christian of course.


What is even worse is that some of Blair's famous new academies are creationist. It's an absolute disgrace from a supposedly Labour govt: but that's New Labour for you.
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby flipflop » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:45 am

Penta wrote:
It seems that every European or European resident here, except nowonmai, disagrees with "the premise of the book" as described in the review she posted. As you would expect.


Ok, back up a bit Trotsky. Why do you have to turn every fooking thread into a sparring match? And how the fook can you speak for "every European or European resident here"?

I'm keeping an open mind about the book -I haven't read the fucker. As for the premise. Well, I don't know much about inter-community relationships in say France, Holland or Germany; but in the UK I think, at one time, radical Islamists posed a very real threat to Britain and our way of life. It took us a long time, then 9/11 and 7/7, to start poking around in our muslim communities to see what was really happening once the mosque door was shut. And it wasn't very amusing or encouraging for those who preach(ed) that we live in a multicultural wonderland.

Now? well, it's either one of two things: it's been stamped out by the forces of the law and the muslim community have got a grip of their lunatic fringe, or it's further underground and better at disguising itself. I don't know either way, I'm not a case officer at MI5. To slag off the premise of the book, without hearing the guy's arguments is what you'd expect from Abu Hamza or any fruitbat Evangelical you care to mention.

I have no doubt there are those out there, hidden in insular muslim communities who are, at this very moment plotting to "destroy the west from within". The question is, how many are there, how well funded/supported are they, and where are they in regards to actually carrying out any outrages? I would imagine they are in a very tiny minority, but again, how would I know?

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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby ROB » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:52 am

As a fellow atheist, I would suggest there is a different tack to consider.

If people want a religious education for their kids, then they will get it one way or another - always have, always will.

How about not only encouraging the schools, but insisting on funding them?

Once they were reliant on government purse strings (which wouldn't be too long) then implement various measures to sideline radical elements - having teachers hand selected by my board of education for example.

The radical element simply isn't big enough that we need to start implementing sweeping changes to the entire system which would displace law abiding religious folk. Plus keeping them within the system enables you to keep an eye on things without cries of discrimination.
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby Penta » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:41 pm

flipflop wrote:
Penta wrote:
It seems that every European or European resident here, except nowonmai, disagrees with "the premise of the book" as described in the review she posted. As you would expect.


Ok, back up a bit Trotsky. Why do you have to turn every fooking thread into a sparring match? And how the fook can you speak for "every European or European resident here"?

I'm keeping an open mind about the book -I haven't read the fucker.


You could back up a bit too, ff. M-A quoted a review which presumably reflects her view of the book, and takes the trouble to point out that it somehow "really explains the penta types", whatever that means. So the sparring didn't start with me, mate. Everyone but nowonmai has taken issue with something in that review (indicating that if the review is any guide, the book's full of inaccuracies). There are plenty of things I could have taken issue with in the review itself, but didn't; I haven't read the book either, and simply posted a review which gives a different perpective on it.

As for the premise. Well, I don't know much about inter-community relationships in say France, Holland or Germany; but in the UK I think, at one time, radical Islamists posed a very real threat to Britain and our way of life. It took us a long time, then 9/11 and 7/7, to start poking around in our muslim communities to see what was really happening once the mosque door was shut. And it wasn't very amusing or encouraging for those who preach(ed) that we live in a multicultural wonderland.

Now? well, it's either one of two things: it's been stamped out by the forces of the law and the muslim community have got a grip of their lunatic fringe, or it's further underground and better at disguising itself. I don't know either way, I'm not a case officer at MI5. To slag off the premise of the book, without hearing the guy's arguments is what you'd expect from Abu Hamza or any fruitbat Evangelical you care to mention.

I have no doubt there are those out there, hidden in insular muslim communities who are, at this very moment plotting to "destroy the west from within". The question is, how many are there, how well funded/supported are they, and where are they in regards to actually carrying out any outrages? I would imagine they are in a very tiny minority, but again, how would I know?


And more to the point, how would Mr Bawer, having spent a short time in Paris, Copenhagen, Amsterdam and Norway? Yet he feels he can spew the usual crap about the whole of Europe being overrun and outbred by Muslims and nobody being brave enough to say anything about honour killings, fgm or wife-beating, as if either these were exclusively Muslim, or all Muslims were guilty of them, for fuck's sake.
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby snaark » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:51 pm

Personally I've no issue with anyone wanting to send their kids to a school for any religion, as long as all schools receive the same funding and teach the same curriculum - maths, science, history, literature etc. If this is not the case then it is indeed a problem. Having said that, I wonder though how much of the so-called "Islamic teaching" is actually teaching history of Islamic countries and Islamic literature and whether if this is necessarily a problem (or just the sort of thing that riles nationalist types). The proposal that Islam is undermining western values is not exclusive to England - they say the same things here in Germany and back home in Oz - and I think just alarmism. I don't personally see much evidence of it, and what I do see I would call modernisation rather than "undermining of western traditions".
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby Penta » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:12 pm

ROB wrote:As a fellow atheist, I would suggest there is a different tack to consider.

If people want a religious education for their kids, then they will get it one way or another - always have, always will.

How about not only encouraging the schools, but insisting on funding them?

Once they were reliant on government purse strings (which wouldn't be too long) then implement various measures to sideline radical elements - having teachers hand selected by my board of education for example.

The radical element simply isn't big enough that we need to start implementing sweeping changes to the entire system which would displace law abiding religious folk. Plus keeping them within the system enables you to keep an eye on things without cries of discrimination.


In English terms, anyway, that wouldn't really work, ROB. The whole thrust of New Labour's policy has been the so-called choice agenda (and there's no way an incoming Conservative govt would go back on that aspect). There's been great centralisation in terms of the curriculum, but decentralisation to individual schools in terms of their own management, drastically reducing local authority democratic control in favour of individual school governing boards (which hire and fire teachers, set the "ethos" of the school and so on). Church of England and Catholic schools have a lot of input from their respective dioceses, so those Muslim schools which do get state recognition (and funding) will have to have the same privileges. And now that Labour has gone down that road of encouraging "faith schools", there is no party that will speak up for getting rid of them altogether within the state school system or secularising them. It's now a lost cause - which is a disaster to my mind.
Shes never interfered with me. I have no complaints about her.
Same here.
Mega ditto.
I met her once and I found her to be a nice lady. Not kookey in any way.
Penta has always been gracious, kind and very sane in all my interactions with her.
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby Vincent » Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:44 pm

First off, great quote by el3so:

Too bad my real life experiences lead me to believe they're just like the rest of us: 5% assholes, 5% good people and 90% scenery


I'm going to have to put that in my sig.

Rob:

I think that idea is a bit of wishful thinking, as the net result would be some manner of home schooling. Simply put, people who want to teach hate with their children always find a way. In the US, it would run afoul of the 1st amendment, as it would become clear that government was trying to influence the practice of religion through selection of its educators.
"Too bad my real life experiences lead me to believe they're just like the rest of us: 5% assholes, 5% good people and 90% scenery." - el3so, BFC philosopher and bon vivant.
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby nowonmai » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:10 am

All this jaw jaw is bore bore. Wish I could fast forward to the interesting bit.
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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby Aryan » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:21 am

flipflop wrote:Yeah, nothing like giving your opinion on a book you haven't even read.

As for integration - the vast majority of muslims integrate well into UK culture, I dunno about Europe as a whole. Muslims from South Asia have been well known to be industrious, enterprising and law-abiding. They are well represented in the professional classes too - doctors, lawyers etc.

This radicalism amongst younger, second and third generation British muslims is a lot less easier to understand. The "poverty" angle doesn't rub, see above. If that was the cause for radicalism leading to violence then there would be hundreds of West Indian and African British suicide bombers roaming the streets looking for targets. Foreign Policy? they've been fomenting radical/wahhabi discourse long before our latest Middle Eastern adventure. Maybe it's an identity crisis coupled with typically youthful exhuberance, a state of mind that's wide open to be exploited by nefarious third parties. But the role played by various radical muslim Imams -both foreign and homegrown- is as good a smoking gun as any for why some young muslim men go on to self-immolate themselves in the name of Islam. The finger is pointing straight at various Saudi religious establishments and preachers.

A few muslim faith schools have embarrasingly been stung by the C4 investigative journalism programme "Undercover Mosque", some teachers at these schools were secretly caught saying some very unecumenical statements - and the schools involved soon distanced themselves and/or sacked the culprits. This programme is still available on YouTube. Before the Jihadi Socialist pipes up - the Police brought a charge of incitement and libel (or similar) upon C4 for attacking these mosques and their speakers, OFCOM overruled the pc-hamstrung cops. It's a very controversial episode.

Watch these videos on YouTube, then the counter-arguments by the individuals portrayed, and make your own mind up.

I personally disagree with faith schools, and this Labour government seems to love them. But they won't be around after the next election.

Cheers


I agree.
Penta wrote:And more to the point, how would Mr Bawer, having spent a short time in Paris, Copenhagen, Amsterdam and Norway? Yet he feels he can spew the usual crap about the whole of Europe being overrun and outbred by Muslims and nobody being brave enough to say anything about honour killings, fgm or wife-beating, as if either these were exclusively Muslim, or all Muslims were guilty of them, for fuck's sake.

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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby nowonmai » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:45 pm

Another good book, bit of a rip off but this bird would eat Penta for breakfast. The left and Muslim crazies are shit scared of her so they do their usual smear tactics. It mostly works because the media is mostly left, as we all know and this journo weeny liberal site amply demonstrates.

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Re: While Europe Slept

Postby Mikethehack » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:21 pm

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I'm not really a proper reporter, due to the chronic lack of discipline, negligible attention span, and a certain juvenile difficulty taking serious things seriously.
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res-erect :-)

Postby el3so » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:11 am

roadkill wrote:also, the riots in france had nothing to do with radical islamism. au contraire, everybody would have been happy if the were some kind of control, by whomever, over the banlieue kids.

AAR on youtoob https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja511kBVuLA
Really interesting bit starts at 01:03:44
she isn't a man you need to shut your fucking mouth little pussy bitch - random Youtube comment
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